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'When law and order is enforced, and all prosecuted protesters convicted, will the marginalised Indian community be better off?'

It may not but this doesn't give them the right to injured the policeman. If there is evidence against them, than the right thing would be to prosecute them. Afterall, this should be the peaceful demonstration as claimed by the hindraf. The police who got injured has their right too. What happen if he really got killed? Blamed this because the police provoke them? Law and order must be applied even though on the marginalised group.

JEFF OOI says: You can't run away from collateral damage when force was used by both sides, and bodily injuries are not a direct consequence of the root cause that precipitates the standoff. Take Iraq, the only battlefield in current history. Soldiers from both sides die in war, but what started war in the first place? Can war be averted?

There's cause and effect to the issue, or a kaleidoscope of issues at play. We can't look the other way or all will pay a bigger price the angst gets bloated. What then, do you think, is the core of the discontentment among our Indian brethren who took to the streets? How should we deal with this core factor/s that seem to be escalating instead of abating? Can we ignore them just because they don't stack up in numbers by population? They are Malaysians, too, aren't they?

Yes. Cause and effect here are totally valid.

The context is already so well known in this case.

First the primary cause - who was first armed and who was walking peacefully?

Second who fired or provoked with the physically noxious stimuli to respond or defend?

The facts are will known now, and documented photographically and even internationally by video for the sequencing of all critical events.. This act of prosecution sadly sinks the police while the government with whom it has had an ambivalent relationship is content to let the police’s momentum escalate. Make no mistake the international human rights and legal community have Malaysia under the microscope. Even if sovereign, the moral high ground and warm feelings towards Malaysia I fear have taken a turn towards that slippery slope.

Collateral damage can happen but somebody still have to be responsible for what happened. Personally I'm scared by the way hindraf have there protest especially when they use words like 'ethnic cleansing', 'islamic extremist' and 'genocide'. They seems like an extremist group. WHat are these going to contribute to their cause?

I 'm also surprised by the response of opposition parties like PAS, KEADILAN and DAP especially. They seems to silently agreed with those words used and supporting the hindraf as long as they are anti-gov. My confidence on opposition is slowly eroded and I'm now seriously in doubt which side I should vote in next election. Both appeared to be 'bad apples' to me but I might have to choose the better of the bad apples which is BN because the opposition just seems to oppose anything as long as it is anti-gov.

Malay and Chinese do have their share of poor people. WHen you fight for your cause based on religion and race, it is bound to be failed. All of us are going to be losers just like how the NEP still fail the Malay. NEP cannot succeed because it is based on racial factor.

You don't fight a wrong with another wrong. BERSIH is a good pathway that we can fight the injustice of current govenment. It is non racial or religion based and it unites all the races. Racism is only going to bread more extreme racism. When things goes out of control than all of us going to suffer.

Even though many people condemn the force used by police, but the fact is the riot police is a TRAINED force. They're TRAINED specificly NOT TO KILLED. Thus the methods they used like tear gas and water canon are methods that with the intention of NOT TO KILL / NON LETHAL. But the same cannot be true for the other side. The protester are not trained. Many the time their behaviour are based on thier anger emotion. They may not have the intention to kill but their way of attacking the police with bricks and iron rods may make them kill the police officers without intention.

This is the same in Iraq war. The US soldiers are trained not to kill civilians. That's why the insurgents kill more civilans than the US soldiers (although they may kill more iraqi indirectly).

Collateral damage may happen but the police is trained to keep it the minimal from thier side.

JEFF OOI says: Violence begets violence, that's the old maxim. We have a real issue here and you seem to have avoided my question. So I repeat: WHAT then, do you think, is the core of the discontentment among our Indian brethren who took to the streets? How should we deal with this core factor/s that seem to be escalating instead of abating? Can we ignore them just because they don't stack up in numbers by population? They are Malaysians, too, aren't they? Let's find the answer to the question. Let's not find a question to the answer.

There were many Hindraf supporters who were injured as well. Can they sue the govt? What happens if the water cannons really hurt someone and resulted in death? If looking at the picture, we can see that the supporters were caged in and then attacked by the authorities. What do you expect them to do? Sit in there like sitting ducks?

This attempted murder case is bigger than Eric chia, Razak baginda's case. None of them prosecuted personnally by the AG. Me can't recall the AG losing any case so far so I guess less 20 indian in the street in the near future.

Anyway, congratulations to the AG for the efficiency to complete and commence investigation in record time.

interesting... how come there's no commission set up? like say, the lingam case? selective application of the law i reckon. so those preaching that law must be applied to even marginalized people should really grow some kahunas and admit that the application of the law here is selective. no two ways about it. shots fired into a crowd in batu buruk? no attempted murder charge there? really?

SELECTIVE PROSECUTION!

The AG is directly involved in the prosecution... ??? He should be instructed by the Government to do so... at all cost maybe...

Looking at the case.. any evidence that these 26 is the one caused the injury? there ware thousands of people.. and are there any pictures, witnesses that can implicate these 26???

there should be no case to press charges at all cost... but the BN government want it to go ahead.. that's why AG is involved directly... even to the extend that it will bring embarassment to the government (lost the case - except if the verdict is already available that they are guilty.. remember malaysian judges can be bought by the government)

BTW... i support their right to rally peacefully but not agree to some of their demands/words in their demands

Power corrupts they say and absolute power, in the Malaysian context, replaces brain with shit.

To begin with the Hindraf event would have been a non-event, if the permits had been granted and everyone allowerd to flow through their intended destsinations and out with it.

Therewas no necessity for the water canons and the tear gas, and yet power decided that it cannot be crossed.

Now that everything is over, all that is needed, is acknowledge mistakes made in handling the matter so far and move on. But no, they got to keep the story hot. Not just hot but they want to now charge people with murder when no one had that in mind on the 25th.

So, the very thing Hindraf was trying to highlight, the discrimination, marginalisation and, ya, ethnic cleansing, I guess the government wants to show the world that Hindraf was right after all.

After all look at the Altantunya soap opera that they have turned a murder trial into. Look at the "Close one eye" MP, Look at Zakaria Deros, Look at VK Lingam video tape issue. And so many more highlighted in this blog alone. Nothing done.

And yet for people wanting to march peacefully, they turn it into a racket and now venting all of their autority and power on hapless individuals who after soem time will just break of course. Maybe they want these guys to implicate Hindraf and Uthayakumar maybe on something more potent.

But then again Uthayakumar is not exactly helping himself either. He did have a moral victory of sorts n the 25th. But instead of trying to cleanse himself and that of his organisations for some of the wild allegations and aspersions cast in many of their documents, they are pursuing it even if unsubstatiated. And even if they can substantiate it, Uthayakumar, being a lawyer, should know that in our courts, by just sayng "irrelevant", the magistrate or judge can ignore/expunge evidence that might support their contention.

The blogs also give Uthayakumar the mood of "his initial support". What I can see is the government seizing the opportunity now to hit hard at Hindraf seeing that in the blogging world there is division in the support for Hindraf.

But this does not mean the government playing unfair, like charging people for attempted murder and property damage. That would probably incite the relevant parties even more. So far, I would say this incitement could be more dangerous than the November 25th march.

The full force of the law is now being applied and its intention is to frighten future would be participants. They are charged for offenses which are Non-bailable. Even if some one is killed under provocation, it is usually man-slaughter as there is no intention. At best these triumph up charges against these supporters can be considered as causing grievous hurt for that policeman. For more details and those involved

Go H E R E 2

This AG and his team are merely a lap dog of BN Govt.
No one can forget how AG Patail elevated to current post ... just by sending Anwar to jail.

JEFF OOI says: Wait a minute, factual error. The AG in charge of Anwar's case that ended in the jail sentence was Mukhtar Abdullah. Deceased.

Hi Jeff,
What I'm trying to say is "Patail got ELEVATED to current post by sending Anwar to jail as a chief Pendakwaraya".
http://www.cljlaw.com/public/Anwar-PP1.html

I am having the similar impression as mwt where the government tried to take this opportunity to suppress future peacefully walk / demonstration. Just like the saying in Chinese "killing the chicken to threaten the monkey" (杀鸡儆猴).

Personally, I don't agree that anyone should use ethnic as key consideration to solve a problems in our country. A problem, e.g. poverty, could be more severe for certain ethnic but it is not isolated from others as well. The BN government is using racism and FUD (Fear, Unknown and Destruction) to divide and conquer each and every races in the country. This is by far the most easiest and effective methods among others such as putting real effort to develop the country and solving the issues in the country.

This can be proved by the shows putting during major party assembly like kissing a kriss. What that guy had contributed to the country in the past? It doesn't matter, as long as, he put up the kriss show and the people support him. He can moves on to the next movie scene of his career. I feel that the opposition is not ready to take over the country yet. So, what can I do with my vote?

The govt wants face. So it clamps down.

Najib said the govt will not meet hindraf anytime soon. It doesn't want to give the impression it succumbs to them. He added that if the govt ever meets them, it will be in the presence of MIC.

All this misses the point. Whether they are hindraf or bersih, pkr or pas, they are also malaysians.

If they find that they have no recourse than to walk to convey a message, they should be allowed to. They should not be provoked by interposing an outdated law that is passed by the very people who pass the policies they are complaining about.

And since they walk because they think MIC has not delivered, saying the govt will only meet them in the presence of the MIC is like trying to act as a discipline master by treating them as school rowdies.

They are people with problems which have recurred because this govt chooses to ignore those problems. It only accepts the standards of MIC which it controls within barisan as though the meaning of coalition does not exist because the interest of one community has to take top priority first. If the people are unhappy, what's so difficult for the govt to meet them and find out exactly what are the issues?

Now this clamp-down and such deliberately heavy charges on the hindraf people will only push them to the wall; in that limit, they will conclude there's no more hope. When people have no more hope, you will get future confrontations which could have been avoided by a more sensitive govt.

This govt has been arrogant. It wants face, and by all its reactions so far, it is only proving that the people who walked have a rallying point. It is not only failing them, it is showing it will fail others too if such a thing happens again because it shows it only subscribes to right defined by only might. It is going to sacrifice those charged in order to maintain a vice-like authoritarian grip on all voice of this country. It is treating the rakyat of this country like its own robots.

Same too with human rights walk, bersih, etc.

There have been a lot of posts on this hindraf matter. Too few talked about the substance. Most for the govt talk about how bad it will look, and also because they worry it may raise another may-13. But if you don't face up to the root cause of things, it will become easier in the future for not only such disparities to grow but also easier for the status quo to be maintained; in other words, no improvement. A govt founded on just might will continue to say that they got away with it all in nov-dec 2007 and quoting that, while raising fear about racial riots, continue the same do-nothing. What hindraf is or is not is not the main matter. The main matter is whether malaysians of indian origin have been marginalized as a result of this govt's policies.

That this govt has chosen to walk away from answering this clearly and instead punishes the messengers who try to convey this problem shows it will continue to be unequal to fair governance. The one thing no right human being can accept is injustice. When you have injustice practised by a govt which has become by its words and actions an arrogant bully, there is a travesty of justice.

People will also think that this govt is too scared to allow for it simply because it is afraid the malay poor will one day also do the same, and then there will be another problem, because when that happens, the balancing act will have to be pushed more in one direction which creates the same result as present, magnified.

Why not just cut the crap and face up to the issue clearly and basally once and for all?

These events present the right chance to do just that. In not seeing them for what they are calling for - a new transformation of governance of Malaysia - everyone in the world will conclude this Umno govt has no intention to change. And so is labelling itself a liar.

It's not about who breaks the law. It's not about tough words used in memos by unrecognized bodies. It's not about bricks and teargas.

It's just about marginalization and bad policies.

400 million increased to 650 million for a new palace can buy a lot of economic aid for many thousands.

What is in the hearts and minds of men only the Almighty will know.

WHAT then, do you think, is the core of the discontentment among our Indian brethren who took to the streets?

Yes, the NEP which discriminate the non Malay but I think the core issue is the MIC which do not do their job properly beside the injustice of NEP. They should make sure Samy Vellu lost in sungai siput and send this big signal to our PM. I'm sure hindraf can do this consider that they can gain such a support in the recent riot. But don't justify their harsh words by naming others islamic extremeist and ethnic cleansing just because they are the oppressed group. If you fight your cause along the racism line, definately there will be no winner because if the Indian win, other group especially Malay will think that they're the loser and we are back to square one.

A good opposition leader should be not afraid to point out the wrong even though it's not popular and not just support anything that anti-gov even to the extend of supporting others to accuse the gov ethnic cleansing or islamic extremist.

JEFF OOI says: Your last paragraph. Try to take away your partisan and race-based politics. Take away your philosophical sermons. You have not answered my question: How do we help our marginalised Indian brethren? I am asking for HOW, unless you don't understand the WHAT.

Why can't I have my philosophical sermons? Why should we only help the poor Indian? Aren't there poor Malay and Chinese as well? It is the way that the gov which help the UMNOputra rather than the bumiputra which create these problems. I believe that we should help all the poor Malaysian not just the poor indians. I never like raced based politic. It is this current government that use race based politic to divide us to acheive their agenda but think again, don't the oppositions are using the same strategy? DAP for chinese, KEADILAN and PAS for Malay. Ooops so who represent the Indian opposition? Hah! This is the problem, obviously no prominent Indian opposition party. So that's why the MIC is the big failure for unable to help the poor Indian because they are busy enriching themselve and nobody policing them.

JEFF OOI says: You were not listening. Try to take away your partisan politics and go the pan-Malaysian, non-racial approach that you pontificated. How do we approach this marginalised Indian brethren issue so that they are brought back in to the mainstream of level playing ground. When you said there are Malays, Chinese and Indians who are also poor. Can we have some URL to point to for referencing, instead of hearsay, and mongering more hearsay?

So what's the solution? Excercise your vote. Vote against the MIC especially Samy Vellu and this will be a significant signal to our PM to make him realise that in order to gain support, he has no choice but to help the poor Indians. No need to resort to violence and putting out harsh words towards your friend. We should fight this together not only for Indian.

JEFF OOI says: Are you already registered as a voter? Have you taken a look at why the Opposition commands over 30% of popular votes but ended up with 9% of seats in the Parliament in 2004? How do we vote in 2008? How SHOULD we vote in 2008? Don't just target Samy Vellu, he only have 9 MPs among 219 in the Dewan Rakyat. Do you the larger picture beyond just targetting Samy Vellu? How could you make your vote, every vote, count?

I think Malaysians have become so racist or ethnocentric that they have lost the proverbial wood for the trees.

How is it we can so easily trivialize or artificially deconstruct real minority distress into clinical statements of platitudes such as ‘must represent all races’ and accuse HINDRAF of narrow parochialisms. Just who is the creator or controller of the agenda here? Besides the facts of Indian Malaysian marginalization are clear and plain to see as well as their contributions to the cultural and economic development of this country. A major temple of theirs was destroyed just before Deepavali and they had tried, nay exhausted all channels to air and seek dialogue. This has been documented. Nothing came of them. Their return for their efforts was zip.

If Islamic terrorists kill innocents in the name of oppression we are exhorted to bend over backwards to understand their root cause, as both Tun Mahathir and PM Abdullah have gone on record internationally to say this. Terrorism in that case is OK because it premeditates and deliberately causes violence to innocents?

But a peaceful protest here in Malaysia is condemned, and even so after repeated efforts to seek the intervention or help from the authorities all ignored, we condemn these people. Hypocrisy dressed in drag as liberal pluralism here.
Denial is a wonderful thing. But the world now knows, so active denial amongst Malaysians is not just in vogue but worse still a way of life in an increasingly non- denying globalized world.

Yes the PM is right other nations should butt out as Malaysia is sovereign. Yes the protesters are Malaysian citizens but therefore as Malaysian citizens and indeed all other Malaysian citizen, they must be treated equally before the law.

Treating all Malaysians as citizens equally is now not going to be so easy , as the slippery slope has meant that the authorities justify one injustice after another, to remain in control and look good. Therein is the quandary, and the attendant inconsistencies that show up marginalization not just to us in Malaysia but to the rest of the world.

Like it or not we have passed a threshold and are under the microscope.

I voted in last 4 elections. Yes, we should look at the big picture. But can you change this overnight? Or can you change this with street protest? Maybe, but definately not hindraf kind of protest which is based on race and religion. We need to win the battle by fighting together as Malaysian. The big picture tells us that we cannot win the whole battle at one go (in one election). It is impossible to target those 219 seats but to challenge the 9 seats of MIC is probably an easier task to do.

Of course we shouldn't target Samy Vellu alone but MIC is probably the weakest link right now. Once the link is broken, we can show to others that something can be done, we can awaken the silent majority that by exercsing your vote you can change something for better even by winning those 9 seats and show to BN that they can be weakened. By the time BN realise that, it may be too late for them.

In my opinion, this is the practical thing to do in next election not by going to the British Queen. How is she going to help us to win the election? Battle is to be won by good strategy by weakening the enermy without the enermy knowing it. It is certainly not won by the one who made the loudest voice.

This attempted murder charge charges with the AG involved is going to make the government look real hypocritical with double standards.

It appears as if they are not thinking but reacting desperately for damage control to appear to maintain law and order but compromising justice.

For one, the murder of the Mongolian woman in the Razak Baginda case has had judges change overnight.

For the other, what about invoking attempted murder charges against local government authorities when they threw large stones at temple devotees in Shah Alam? In fact no arrests were made at all, not even one for the violence, let alone attempted murder charges.

The photographic evidence is vividly found all over and why even published in Malaysiakini. This was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back.

See this article THE CORRIDORS OF POWER by Raja Petra Kamarudin

http://www.malaysia-today.net/nuc2006/index.php?itemid=833

I think Raja Petra has a point that hindraf made a mistake and undermine the opposition parties cause.

"The Malays may finally unite under Abdullah Ahmad Badawi as planned. And once that happens, Abdullah can safely call for the dissolution of Parliament to make way for the 12th General Elections. Okay, so they lose the Chinese and Indian votes. Okay, so they only garner 60% of the votes. But that does not matter as long as the 60% comes from Malay votes because these 60% votes from united Malays command 80% of the seats."

Intersting! Interesting!

I guess this is how the BN do not worry when opposition can win 30% wvotes but only lost 9% MP.

IGP said that they have evidence of Hindraf and terrorist link.

I think the police would nip in the bud just like the Al munah group who stormed into the army ammunition camp.