Screenshots

OMG intarweb gangsterism lol

gotta leave it to the malaysians for coming up with clever monikers all the time.

dear mr jeff ooi,

i hereby WARN u to, within 24 hours:

1, remove the above posting, n anything written by my dear friend P Gunasegaram on your blog.

2, stop publishing anything written by P Gunasegaram, on your blog.

otherwise, i'll make a POLICE REPORT or complain to the esteemed Communications and Multimedia Content Forum Complaints Bureau of our grand country Malaysia, for the following remarks made by my dear friend P Gunasegaram, which u have reproduced verbatim on your above post.

"The insidious thing about it is that it uses the notion of freedom of expression to perpetuate the aims of the blogger and those who make comments on his blog. There is clear attempt to intimidate the target by abuse, bullying, name-calling and the use of obscenity."

the reason being i'm an internet user, n I BELIEVE that my dear friend P Gunasegaram's above article "is clear attempt to intimidate the target by abuse, bullying, name-calling and the use of obscenity."

intimidate = his article in itself is, espeically when he said "The law says so"!! see, he's using the police to SCARE ME NOW!!!!!! (help... i'm being intimidated...!!!)

target = all internet users, including me.

abuse = he called me gangster!!! waaaaaaa!!!! (read: crying, like a baby)

bullying = he said i "should not be tolerated"!!! waaaaaaa!!!! (read: crying, like a baby)

name-calling = again, he called me a gangster!!! waaaaaaa!!!! (read: crying, like a baby)

use of obscenity = to ME, the word "insidious" used in the above quote IS OBSCENE!!!!! as well as the words "ridiculing and harassment"... "CENSORSHIP"... "Net" (bcos it suggests 'fishnet', which in turn has been rather commonly used as a fashion attire by ladies BUT I GRAVELY DISAPPROVE OF)... "physical" (bcos it suggests a male body part...)

disagree with MY interpretation?? sorry, dont explain to me. see u at the 'mediation' - before the esteemed Communications and Multimedia Content Forum Complaints Bureau of our grand country Malaysia.

p/s. up, malaysia...

p/s. GROW up, malaysia...

p/p/s. i'm sorry malaysia if by growing up, YOU INTERPRET it to mean that i was trying to INTIMIDATE u for being young, n therefore childish, n therefore immature, n therefore would b spanked real hard on your butt if u speak up, n therefore blah blah blah... n therefore "£$%$"£$%"£&&@"@£@... n therefore u r just like an idiot, n therefore u people r not mature enough to use internet or have something called freedom of speech... rest assured that the above r ALL YOUR INTERPRETATIONS.

oh oh, sorry, u said u're FORTY-NINE YEARS OLD already??? well look at u!! see, u look so young!!! i thought u were kidding there... so how's school? you like school??? (ooops, i did it again malaysia... i was only paying u a compliment for BEHAVING N THINK like a youth, by no means was i trying to INTIMIDATE U my son...)

i give up

I do not think it's necessary to attach a PG rating or any sort of rating to blog like this as it is neither a porn or the type of site which warrrants one.

True, I may not agree with some of Jeff's opinions or some of the comments all the time but similarly I doubt that all of Guna's readers agree with him either.

Together with the freedom of speech comes the freedom of choice. If a person is upset with the choice or slant a particular blog is, just ignore it. Furthermore, unlike established media, it's not in your face and when we click on that bookmark, we make a choice to read or ignore it.

As for the usage of foul language, is it any better if I were to use the term 'ball-less SOB' or 'pusillanimous son of a mother of a dog'? And for those who feel the first term is better suited to their style, they merely invite the same sort of retribution.

So to Guna, I can only say 'Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names can never hurt me'

when are we going to have PG rating for the Kopitiam? Lots of talk about politics and EVERYTHING else. When did we turn into a Stalin State?

Jeff,

I hope a clear distinction can be drawn on what Self regulation means, it should mean, amd it could mean.

PG's likening of physical real world gangsterism and internet gangsterism is not wrong at all. Yes he has it right that both type of gangsters will not and cannot self regulate. i agree. Hats off PG for that analogy. you are worth your salt uh?.

But wait. is that the case that we are deliberating here?. Why is Mr.PG still harping on to a non fact?. Screenshots reader IImran, has pointed out what he intented to mean when he said the word Shoot. And i remember reading his e-mail which you posted later, spelling out his remorse on what had transpired because of his "wrong choise of words". Rightfully any sane man who has some sort of principle would have shaken it off and moved on. Unless of course he is some sort of a sick Spin doctor. Whose consciousness is not as clean as it seems.

So how in the world did he conclud ethat Screenshot is an Internet gangster or harbours such perople?

My analysis is....
He is hurt Jeff. Mr.PG is hurt. no, not a hurt lion, He is a wounded hyena.

face the fact Mr.PG. People have opinion on what you write , or spin. For all the years, He has been hiding behind the print media. If you write for the print media, of course, you can write freely, no one could question you, you can ask 22 questions, 44 questions, oh for lords sake i can come up with 100 question on Abdullah's administration (if thats what it is called), and feel proud of my self for having the ability to do so.

But the invent of Intenet, and web logs, can put the brakes on you. and thats what has happened in this case. When some one questioned his intentions with his 22 questions, he got mad. then he was so fixed he had to take some sort of action towards this blog, so that no other blogger can question his motives. Did u think for a moment that ou are so superior MR.PG?

And you knwo whats the best part?....that sly Mr.PG would be going thru all the postings on this blog and would be frantically finding for words which could tantamout to a "kill" or a "murder" or a "threat". of course you know what he would do when he finds one.

Jeff, one advise to you, I think you knw the Blue Ocean Strategy. yes Just disregard this spineless Mr.PG. Let him hide behind some bush and shoot. Do not worry that it will hit you. As he is the one with a guilty conscous. He shall later go away [ DELETED ] .

It used to be, if you don't like it, flip the channel, what happened?.....

Mr PG. has been writing news about others for so many years. He probably got tired of it and turn to something new instead. Making himself the news. [ DELETED ]

"I think we live in a bad age for the free speech argument. Many of us have internalized the censorship argument, which is that it is better to shut people up than to let them say things that we don’t like. This is a dangerous slippery slope, because people of good intentions and high principles can see censorship as a way of advancing their cause and not as a terrible mistake. Yet bad ideas don’t cease to exist by not being expressed. They fester and become more powerful"- Salman Rushdie

jeff,

r u telling me that we cant even use the word WHORE now??

(u deleted it from wsll's post above)

HEEEEEEELLLLPPPPPPPPPP!!!!

people: jeff has asked all of u to delete the following words from your oxford english dictionary. (more to come later.)

whore, prostitute, pimp...

JEFF OOI says:Single words may be innocent and virtuous, but when used in clear context, someone may just invoke laws to "shoot you for good", and I don't need a "gun to be put on my my head" to delete those innocent words in English context that may allow abuse of law to happen. Now, get back to the original blog topic, don't go astray from my intended context.

Jeff,
the whole thing is a joke to me.
and I agree that Malaysian are still young, younger then you thought.
After 49 years from the 1st Merdeka, we still need somebody to censore movies, ads, articles.
If you want to put PG rating stop censore and if you want to put censore why you still need rating for?
Now you tell me.

Let's not over-engineer this PG thing. There is enuff chaos. And let's not extend from blogs to forums one day.

Malaysian mentality on blogging/foruming still warrants strong moderation. Self-regulation is so-so.

Dear Jeff,
Are all comments in future gonna look like ...[DELETED] ..... [DELETED]....??
Well than i weep for Malaysia!!
Please remove the ugly face from the right side of your page (Or am i not allowed to call it an ugly face, and should i call it a face i dislike).
The PG guy went way over his shelve life and has to be taken of the shelve. His article is cleary showing he is a wawasan 1010 follower.
Ignore this guy totally! All the free propaganda he gets, he thinks is in honour of him.
I pushed the PG-OFF button!

what's next..sleep talking also will be prosecuted..

folksss!!

jeff has deleted a WHOLE SENTENCE from Observer's post in Reader IImran's apology
http://www.jeffooi.com/2006/08/reader_iimrans_apology.php
which says, "Honestly, I feel sorry for Guna for living the life of XXXX a man!"
WITHOUT even the HONESTY AND COURTESY of telling us that he had [ DELETED ] it!!!

what's next - deleting the ENTIRE POST without telling us??

jeff is acting as scary as the KGB now, n i'm VERY VERY disappointed.

SHAME ON U, JEFF

(see my post at
juslo | August 30, 2006 10:26 AM)

JEFF OOI says: Instead of whining, why don't you write a decent letter to express your views on the whole thing for the attention of the Content Forum? URL: www.cmcf.org.my. Tha;'s provided you are willing to treat this issue as a serious one with far-reaching implications. I am DELETING to illustrate how the situation can worsen, and you don't seem to get the point.

jeff,

u asked me to "go back to the original blog topic, don't go astray from my intended context."

1, define 'astray', n how it can happen.

2, define what's your 'intended context' n what's not. give me the mathematical formula so i can have a PRECISE idea of what it is.

3, after u've told me the answers to the above qestions, answer this: WHO ARE YOU, other than being the 'owner' of this blog, to tell us what is relevant, correct, proper, appropriate etc to say, n what is ASTRAY????

jeff, u r fast becoming the WORST example of self-censorship!!!!

this is just stupid, jeff. i hope u get the point of my experiment today.

sigh...

JEFF OOI says: After enduring several of your rant and whine, I do not believe you fully understand OR you are at all serious with the issue we face. In short, you are barking up the wrong tree. I will spend my time more productively tackling this issue behind the scene, rather than wasting my time responding to your whine and rant. You need to know where the arrows are coming from.

For a start, it's easy to use words like stupid because talk is always cheap. But you need to use wisdom and good reasoning to convince your detractors. Learn something fast, my friend.

jeff,

i will "write a decent letter to express my views on the whole thing for the attention of the Content Forum."

bcos i AM "willing to treat this issue as a serious one with far-reaching implications."

but i'll start with talking to YOU first, bcos i know u r NOT an idiot like some.

"I am DELETING to illustrate how the situation can worsen, and you don't seem to get the point."

the problem begins with YOU deleting, jeff. if u didn't delete, the problem would never have existed.

JEFF OOI says:I am not above the law.

look at raja petra kamarudin's blogs in Malaysia Today. see what people are saying there. no pre-mod, no post-delete. that's what it means to be FREE.

JEFF OOI says: Please include this observation of yours in your letter to the Content Forum, if you so wish. You may educate the power-that-be about this aspect.

i've already made my views very clear: it's a stupid idea, simply bcos what's proper or not is AMBIGUOUS, UNCERTAIN, n can easily lead to ABUSE. your (i'm sorry) RIDICULOUS actions in deleting words such as 'whore', 'half a man' n so on illustrates that.

this is not a prime time tv station catered for 12 years old, jeff. we r adults here. using words like above is necessary to express the TRUE EXTENT of how ridiculous certain things are.

JEFF OOI says: So, when is your letter to the Content Forum going to be ready to post?

Hi Jeff,

I suggest why not you just use the same method in Porn Website. Meant, for whoever to want to read your blog, need to click "Agree" to preceed and "Not Agree" to forward to othersite.

And list down the terms and regulations there for your blog commentor to in auto scroll text format, which the agree button is pause for at least 20 seconds before it can be clickable.

Great Idea Yeah. Gl(S)ad that Malaysian blogospere indeed are such modernized nowaday.

JEFF OOI says: I have TOTAL control in what I blogged. But, I adhere to the Malaysian syberlaw to promoted self-regulation among Internet users who post online content that reaches the public. My earlier advisory to the blog commenters is available here: http://www.jeffooi.com/2006/02/think_before_you_leave_your_co.php

Jeff,

I think you know how I and most of us feel about this.

For now, I wanted to ask: this thing with the CMCF was a 'mediation' - I believe called as such because you also had a complaint against Nexnews?

I don't know if that complaint was confidential, but I wanted to ask if it was addressed?

It would seem undue pride is not an issue with you (good on you!), but if you read theSun's (frontpage! :P ) article, it seems like you were doing all the compromising.

Appearences are not that important, but in the interests of fairness, I am really interested to hear what the CMCF and Nexnews had to say regarding the things that you yourself brought up?

thanks!

JEFF OOI says: The ball lies in the court of the Complaints Bureau for now as the minutes of THAT particular meeting has not be circulated NINE days after themeeting concluded at the time I wrote this .

writing to the CMCF aside, why should we "challenge him intellectually" when his case isn't intellectual enough for a sane human being in the first place?

And would I be able to press charges or write complaints or whatever that you call it to CMCF or anybody because he just accused me of being an intarweb gangsta, making my darjah 5 sister crying to sleep because of that and making a mockery of my hardworking parents for bringing up a gangsta? a bit far-fetched lol, but still, would we able to file a complaint because what he had just said?

together with that dude who accused me/us of being a sniper, potentially associating us with..... TERRORISTS?!

OMFG LOL LMAO LMFAO! IMHFO WTF "P.G" STFU & GFH KMA "P.G"! GTG, BRB & CYA! AFK now. W/E

Jeff, before CMCF existence, the guide to behaving is from http://www.albion.com/netiquette/

It was there since the very day of Internet. While Malaysia can have their own codes, I hope they do take some guidelines from Netiquette.

dear patriotic1994,

i havent heard of any law in malaysia which detailed the legal responsibilities of bloggers. so, i think jeff is setting a bad precedent for us all.

JEFF OOI says: You are misleading the general public and this cannot be condoned. The cyberlaw that governments Online Content provider, aggregators are contained in Communications & Multimedia Act 1998 Sections 211, 212, and 213. The causes are further defined in the the Content Code, which is santioned under CMA1998 Section 213. There are penalties for fouting any of the law. Besides, defamatory content posted online can be dealt with via the Defamation Act, Seditious online content can be prosecuted under the Sedition Act, and incitement to cause disharmoney can be dealth with under the Penal Code. GET A GOOD LAWYER AND PROVE THAT I AM WRONG.

see my comment at Warning to all blog commentors
http://www.jeffooi.com/2006/08/advisory_to_all_blog_commentat.php
juslo | August 30, 2006 11:07 AM

i guess u can choose to have MANY TYPES of blogs.

1, pre-moderated and post-regulated. in that case, the blogger SHOULD b liable for the comments/posts by OTHERS, bcos he claims he has CHECKED n REGULATED them.

these blogs r no different from the mainstream media, bcos the blogger OWN UP TO the comments posted there.

if u ask me, this is a stupid idea - u r essentially telling people that "i OWN UP to all these comments".

further, soon, the blogger will have to GIVE UP the blog bcos it'll become HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE to read and regulate all comments!! common sense. (unless u r paid to do this, but jeff is not. so y he chose to turn his blog into this??)

2, no pre-mod or post-regu. in this kind of blogs, the blogger is ONLY offering a space, n he's not responsible for the goings on/use of the space.

this blog is like the speaker corner of hyde park in london, where everybody can come n speak, n nobody (including the owner, the Queen) is responsible for what is spoken there. eg. raja petra kamarudin's Malaysia Today.

JEFF OOI says: CORRECTION. You are not my authorised spokesman. This blog shall act as the Hyde Park IF AND ONLY IF the blog commenters do not violate any of the Malaysian laws, cyber or traditional.

to me, this is what a blog IS, and SHOULD REMAIN AS: just a SPACE.

again, it's simply humanly impossible to check all comments n then decide what to delete or not!! so y try to buy hyde park n make it into your personal property, AND ALSO want to take responsibility for what is being said n done there???

JEFF OOI says: I am beginning to wonder, instead of dealing with the REAL issue -- Is self-regulation unworkable in Malaysian cyberspace -- this commenter has incessantly takin me to fault -- as if I am the greatest criminal to bring down Internet? Did you you know Internet, tfreedom of expression and its privileges come with responsibility> Don't be so naive that there is absolute freedom in the space we operrate.

jeff,

have u sought legal opinion on the legal liabilities of bloggers??

if not, then i think u r not entitled to say what is "the law" n how u r "not above" it.

JEFF OOI says: Yes, I have a team of practising lawyers who are guiding me behind the scene since 2004, and one of them is a senior counsel in criminal law, two on human rights. I have consulted all of them, and they want me to know that I should know my limits.

Jeff, i do agree witht he agreement that you came with under CMCF, to monitor strictly on your visitors' comments. But i dunt see why you still need to keep on targetting P.Guna of thesun. Put the issue behind and move on like a gentleman accepting his faults and defeats.

JEFF OOI says: My name was singled out in Gunasegaram's article in The Edge, Aug 21. He also touches on the big picture issue governing the way blogs should operate. It concerns me in particular, and it concerns us bloggers all in general. The issue Guna brought up has merits to be debated intellectually.

Btw, to other comentators, you guys must remmebr, there are thousands of words that could better describe things than those like "whoere" and wats not... be decent.

I feel like we are moving "forward? or backward?" to the year 1919.

Jeff (and to Ilmra2):

All along I have said It was a case of Much Ado Over Nothing. I still hold that opinion -- but I salute your, Jee, and Conversationist Ilmran, for being gentlemen extending the APologies.

To me, a Blogger inspired by "M.blogsworld sifu" Jeff to start 2 Ides of March ago, the Outcome marks a BLACK DAY FOR THE POTENTIAL 5TH ESTATE IN NegaraKu, definitely an affirmation of the poor state of affairs, particularly its senior practictioners in the likes of Guna (I hesitated using the 'ilk of' so that Jeff has less 'editing" to belabour...Sorry, did I digress?)of the 3RD ESTATE here! coming just a day before 49th Hari Merdeka. I feel sad.

Just part with these lines from another sifu Max Ehrmann:

"I Go My Way

Al round is haste, confusion, noise.
For power and wealth men stretch the day
From dawn till dusk. But quietly
I go my way..."

"May peace and progress be on Us -- Our NegaraKu --despite ...
I.S. A:men."

juslo,

maybe i can understand your frustration, maybe i can't. but i do not see any point in attacking jeff for whatever that have happened. jeff, did not ask for all this to happen and yet you are saying as if he is the cause of all this because he gave in.with all you "idea" and "opinions", why don't you start your own "space", host it in malaysia, and do what you "want" jeff to do? isn't it more productive than "asking" jeff to do it??jeff is doing all this for free, giving us alternative views on matter regarding this land and sometimes because of us, he gets into trouble. are you there to help and support him? will you be so willing to offer any financial support if he gets sued because of our comments? start your own "space" and live up to your words, instead of hiding in jeff's comment section.

pardon my england, it is not that powderful.

i agree with juslo that part of the problem being jeff actually did and does moderate his blog so what ever was allow to remain is/was a conscious decision, that makes jeff at least partly responsible for the posts.

JEFF OOI says: I detest pre-moderated posting as I do not ( 1 ) censor based on my criteria ( 2 ) to be faulted to own up to any legally-implicated postings by the readers. As such, I have put up the ground rule that "Internet doesn not operate in alegal vacuum and you are entirely on your own when you violate any Malaysian law. That said, the law also does not absolve me from further responsilities in NOT deleting any offensive online content after they have been posted in my blog -- a privilege I have given you upfront and in good faith. You, as responsible blog commenters must do your part to uphold your side of the trust. If in doubt, go back to the latest, fresh warning from the Complaints Bureau of what defines offensive online content. The prominent red button is here: http://www.jeffooi.com/2006/08/advisory_to_all_blog_commentat.php

for example, i was "moderated" at least a couple of time (not necessarily [deleted] but may be just "warned" or "ridiculed"), so i learned to toe the thin line to avoid further moderation so my voice will still be heard (without starting my own blog as jeff once suggested) and so jeff is not inclined to silent me but instead want to be seen as fair and open to opposing voices.

JEFF OOI says:I will moderate in accordance to the provisions of Sections 211, 212, 213 of the CVMA1998 and related caused in the Content Code. At times, misleading conjectures or untruths willbe given their due perspective by me as I don't want to stand accused of being a conveyor of falsehood and untruiths that became the headline materials for the PM down to his ministers.

but in cases where some posters have clearly, or suspected to, crossed the line, yet is not moderated, it is only natural to be taken as jeff's endorsement of that particular statement.

STRONG>JEFF OOI says: Talk is cheap. The acid test is to set up your own blog, put the real name and contact number, host the server in Malaysia, and blog as you please.

in a land where everything can be "misunderstood" and "quote out of context", we must always be careful with what we said. the net maybe the last bastion of "freedom" we have. we must not let ourselves be "quoted out of context" so that the POWERS can't put words into our mouth and use it to clamp down on us. i respect jeff for taking his time and money to help further whatever freedom of expression we have left in this land. for this i salute you, jeff.

jeff,

the following is the text of the relevant parts of the Communications & Multimedia Act 1998.

i'm no legal expert, but i would argue that u r only doing something illegal if YOU r the 1 (as opposed to your commentators) "provide content" deemed illegal.

here, u r only providing a space. the contents r NOT provided by YOU, the space owner.

any legal expert who can help?

JEFF OOI says: By the application of law, I CANNOT argue with the law. If you are not a lawyer, and I am not one -- You can only employ a qualified lawyer to represent you, to interprete the law to your favour, and motion the Bench to see your side of the plea. You have raised a question which is a non-starter.

Communications & Multimedia Act 1998

Chapter 2
Content Requirements

211. (1) No content applications service provider, or other person using a content applications service, shall provide content which is indecent, obscene, false, menacing, or offensive in character with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten or harass any person.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) commits an offence and shall, on conviction, be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty thousand ringgit or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year or to both and shall also be liable to a further fine of one thousand ringgit for every day or part of a day during which the offence is continued after conviction.

212. The Commission may designate an industry body to be a content forum for the purposes of this Part.

213. (1) A content code prepared by the content forum or the Commission shall include model procedures for dealing with offensive or indecent content.

(2) The matters which the code may address may include, but are not limited to -

(a) the restrictions on the provision of unsuitable content;

(b) the methods of classifying content;

(c) the procedures for handling public complaints and for reporting information about complaints to the Commission;

(d) the representation of Malaysian culture and national identity;

(e) public information and education regarding content regulation and technologies for the end user control of content; and

(f) other matters of concern to the community.

source:
http://www.ktak.gov.my/template01.asp?Content_ID=131&Cat_ID=1&CatType_ID=17&SubCat_ID=40&SubSubCat_ID=68
http://www.mcmc.gov.my/mcmc/the_law/ViewAct.asp?lg=e&arid=900722

JEFF OOI says: I have gone through these specific clauses donkey times with my lawyers and learned members of the Content Forum. I trust what my lawyers advised me. What did your lawyer say to you?

to jeff and arty,

i'm NOT attacking jeff here, n i'm sorry, jeff, to make u feel that way.

i was only doing a little experiment of my own, to show how ridiculous the whole censorship thing can get.

sincerely.

JEFF OOI says: Again, it firther illustrates how precarious it is when speeches get disseminated to the public through the Internet media. It gives rise to interpretations and perceptions that are anything but diverse. Worse, if you land on the wrong side of the law.

Jeff n others... maybe this whole PG saga will become a trend in blogosphere after this...

Who knows, after PG there might be some1 we are going to 'bash' but somehow we become scared of using a suitable word... a portion of the freedom has been taken away...

Let's move on... leave PG n his labu2nya (this is a malay idiom)

sorry for "spamming", but i do not see the point. even though jeff is moderating his blog, that doesn't mean he is sitting in front of a computer 24/7 to moderate it. he IS human after all and no matter how vigilant he is, he still need to make a living. he is doing all this for free and yet he is being prosecuted for statements he didn't not make.what is worst that, the commentators turn their back and point their fingers at him when something "threaten" the freedom of webspace because he didn't not do enough moderation or give in to the POWERS.when jeff gets a knock on the door from the authorities, commentators conviniently log off the net and go on with their daily life while jeff is left alone to face the music.

JEFF OOI says: I anticipate today's blog entries will arouse significant respinses. Hence, to play safe, I take a half-day leave to monitor the conversations. I just want to make sure I don't get shot down by a stray bullet and die an innovent man-blogger.

arty, looks like you have seen the truth. there's a price to pay to be called "the most influential malaysian blogger". if nothing else, jeff should surely go down in history as one of the first influential malaysian bloggers. surely it's too much to expect perfection. i never believe jeff got it just right. to be fair, at this point in time, no one really know where is the center ground between being a sounding board for the authority, a self-gratifying exercise, a circle-j, a bbq pit, a center of intelligent exchanges.
it's growing pain.

JEFF OOI says" Precisely the closing remarks I said at the Complaints Bureau yesterday. As this blog is reputed to endure dissenting views for nealry four years now, the notion of "circle jerk", your fav ejeculature, only aptly applies in your true case and no one else. This, I have lived and blogged long enough to testify. We will not disappoint you on this. It's a promise I have kept for four long years via this blog, and it will be so for another four.

arty,

i agree. talk is cheap. n i'm a chicken, for not doing what jeff's doing n to face the music.

jeff,

i appreciate what u r doing here, jeff. i really do.

the law - if that's what your lawyers said, then too bad, i just have to shut up then.

i want to add that u doesnt have to lie so low as to become PG's machai, doing his (n all the censorship czars') bidding by running around to read all n censor some.

it's futile, bcos u'll never know what the authority would regard as improper/illegal, even after u've diligently carried out all your censorship-deletion chores.

if u want to invite malaysians to come to your blog n read your authority-UNfriendly posts, but also expect them to restrain themselves from condemning the authorities in the strongest possible terms, then my advice is to give up blogging.

soon, u'll get too tired of censoring SOBs like me.

"Thinking Allowed. Thinking Aloud."

goodbye, jeff.

JEFF OOI says: Take my advice. Don't be a hero. Duck, when the bullet flies. By I shall soldier on -- as a responsible blogger I started some four years ago. I keep hearing people telling me I have something good and something right. So I won't feel thwarted by what has happened. Man will just get stronger, and wiser, by the every lesson he learnt.

JEFF OOI says: Talk is cheap. The acid test is to set up your own blog, put the real name and contact number, host the server in Malaysia, and blog as you please.

ya i know, i once made some comments to a politician, he also asked me to run for parliament, otherwise shut up...
so what's new...

JEFF OOI says: What's new is that starting a blog is much cheaper than becoming a politician. And when you are lucky and when you decide you want to play to the gallery, you invite circle jrk that you crave for. Which I don't. Politicians face the constituents every five years. Blogger faces his constituents every minute, every day.

wasted too much time on this juslo guy... we shouldn't.

talking cheap... he is.

JEFF OOI says" ...the notion of "circle jerk", your fav ejeculature, only aptly applies in your true case and no one else.

thank you for your high esteem but no one can do circle-j by himself. not even someone as good as i am.
i stand by my expressed opinion that many of the threads in your blog lack voices from all sides - that in my book is circle-j and is not a good thing. although they may be dissenting to the gov's voice - that in a free civil society is neither good nor bad, it just is. but of course in malaysia, it's treasure-able but not the only one available.

JEFF OOI says:Point taken. I drink to the day when you find circle jerks thrives in this blog and that you have been vindicated. For now, let's take it that you are denied your anticipated jerk and the pleasure is on mine. I am mindful that most of my readers have finer taste in handling themselves.

like his namesake, his writing should be taken with a pinch of salt... [ DELETED - Defamatory innuendos ]

[DELETED]??

jeff, i seriously think that u need to take more 'legal advice' on what's defamatory or not. r u saying that we'll believe PG is made of 'salt' if we make fun of his name?? does defamation bans SATIRE also???

hellooooooooooo???

now, u r not even allowed to make fun of PG!!

JEFF OOI says; i am sorry you have got it all wrong. This blog's coeemnt/feedback function is NOt about making fun of people, but to discuss serious topic of theday in engaging conversation.s

this is too much, jeff... i think u r really scared of PG, nobody else. n PG is laughing now.

JEFF OOI says: Whether I am scared of P Gunasegaram or whether he is laughiong at at is none of my concern, and not a sonsequence of this blog's existence. Blogging is not about winning or losing over personality and opinion differences. I have far more Big Pictute issue to tackle and crusade.

JEFF OOI says:... let's take it that you are denied your anticipated jerk and the pleasure is on mine.

thank you for your concern but i can take care of my own needs

JEFF OOI says:... I am mindful that most of my readers have finer taste in handling themselves.

well, good luck to you

JEFF OOI says: Thank you sir.

c'mon juslo, just give jeff some time to regain his bearing and senses ok? show some empathy lah. if someone slap you hard hard sure you'll develop a phobia that will take sometime to settle down.

JEFF OOI says: Empathy is a virtue. Thanks. No, you are -- again, shooting from the hip like a wild cowboy -- I haven't lost sight of my bearing in this blogging mission. And let me emphasise that Internet, with its measures of freedom for expression, does not operate in a legal vacuum. Within that narrow limits of legal confines, I am convinced we -- the Internet stakeholders -- have collectively made a little impact here and here and that opinion space belongs to the maases empowered by Internet. Talk-down paradigm inherent in the mainstream media is sitting up. That should spur us on. Regain thebearing, what are you talking about?

lsk,

but he's making a FOOL out of himself now!!

if he wants to take it upon himself to censor, then he should know what is actually 'defamatory' first.

jeff ooi says: Can you handle defamation? Don;t make a mess of yourself, kid.

just bcos u dont want to b a hero doesnt mean u should then become (PG's) [ DELETED ].

Nerve's have been really touch and twanged like a guitar string over this issue i suppose. But some people apparently don't realize that when Jeff censor's his blogs, he doesn't remove the actual content and the crux of the message itself.

It's up to a reader's imagination to wonder what the [deleted] messages are all about. But at the end of the day, u have to ask yourself whether are u there to ponder about the actual issues at hand or do you just want to let your imagination run while on any [deleted] or [defamatory] lines that some readers have put in here?

Self-censorship is not equivalent of shutting out the the main gist of any news or blog. Any Ali, Ah Chong and Muthu can tell u that any foul use of language or statments which are derogatry in nature and are not beneficial should not be in this blog.

Even intelligent and well-thought homo sapiens can get carried away at times and that's where u see profanity coming in, but when u [delete] it off and see the crux of the message you may find well-meaning messages down there.

As for Guna, anyone with have a minimum of cow-sense will tell you that he is not worth the trouble. What is heart-breaking is to see that the Sun today (30/08/06 front page) has proclaimed that Jeff would have to apologise over this little issue on the "Just shoot Guna thingy" here today. Is it true Jeff? I just hope it is just a technicality to prevent you being taken away by the Gestapo.

JEFF OOI says: That's the art of journalism in posturing. The intro to thesun's story has been written in a way that at one look, people get induced into believing that it was JEFF OOi who had apologised. I received a pjone call from a reporter and a medical doctor who attest to that illusion.

This is how theSun worded the para: "Blogger Jeff Ooi has agreed to publish in full an apology by the person who posted a remark inciting people to "shoot for good" Nexnews group executive editor P. Gunasegaram over an article he wrote."> technically flawless, but posturing and leading perspective is suspect. In astronomy, the Sun does eclipse from time to time, but stay right there, up there,in a situation that this commenter described as "heart-breaking".

juslo,

Take up the challenge posed by Jeff, start a blog of your own and (probably) you'll realise the issue on hand.

You seems to be someone who stands firm on what you believe in, together with the argumentative skill you own, we would love to see the extent of freedom you allow in the convesation part.

How about that?

skthew,

thanks for your 'compliments', whether u meant it or just being sacarstic - just let me self-glorify for a bit... (feels great!! thanks)

i appreciate u noticing my 'skills' n 'firmness'... ;P

to answer your question, i dont have the kind of time to blog, n i dont have access to all these info posted by jeff, not having jeff's network so to speak.

so, i can only play gureilla (cant even spell that word...).

but i've said already that i'm a chicken compared to jeff. (see above, August 30, 2006 12:10 PM) but just bcos i'm a chicken, or less well-educated/cultured/well-mannered/civilized than jeff or anybody else, doesnt mean i'm not entitled to voice my opinions, right??

juslo and all,

I did not suggest that the law should be created to govern the blogging. But law can be created if it is necessary to protect our rights to blog/comment. Without such law, we can be abused (by P.G).

In my opinion, Jeff had done a right things to brought this up because P.G has abused his rights to condem blogger for a radiculous reason. See, we have spent so much energy just to solve this problem, simply because there isn't any such law exists to protect us.

I feel that P.G is doing self destruction act to try to destroy the freedom of speech that we all currently enjoyed. He wanted some sort of control or popularity. But he didn't realize such action is beyond his power to manage. For example, if blogging is controlled in certain way, it is not just affecting Jeff, but P.G himself, also his family, chilren, friends and all fellow malaysian.

Should he had looked longer distance, he may not had acted childishly.

P.G, we all know that you are taking this opportunity to gain some sort of "things", which we have no ideas what is it. However, I do advise you to think carefully of what you did (I didn't know you are this old and mature, if Jeff didn't put up your photos) because it affects everyone. Do the good things, promote the freedom of speech. You never know when you need it one day.

Well, firstly: I take offense with Mr Guna for assuming with the same fallacious reasoning he accuses commentators of that people who speak here are "a gang" who, according to him, form the basis of a group of bullies out to bludgeon anyone with "our" opinion.

Mr Guna seems to forget that bloggers are people too, who read the Edge, watch TV, have kopi susu for tea and such. We aren't a monolithic race of new beings suddenly sprung up from no-where.

Instead of tremulously wilting at the first sign of "vilification", perhaps it would be more instructive if Mr Guna could respond to questions thrown his way with the requisite objectivity he denies we 'bloggers' have.

Secondly: weblogs have not "spawned" a "wild west" phenomenon in which everyone takes liberties to post whatever they want. Mr Guna, get a clue: it's been going on for AGES, on lone BBS's out there in the wilderness. Ever hear of 9.6k baud modems? LoRD?

That's what makes the internet the sort of breathtakingly exciting space that it is. Anybody can say whatever they want, and being a responsible netizen means actually applying our god-given intellectual capacities to delineate between run-of-the-mill dross, and diamonds in the rough.

Instead, being a responsible netizen, it appears, means self-censorship and being aware of the legal implications of what we say. What an interesting slippery slope.

Thirdly: moderation of comments is no cure for a news portal or blog whose owner has a particular take on the issues being discussed. Given that we don't really know who defines what "seditious", or "offensive" means, anything can be construed as such, no matter how stringent the moderation.

Several steps down that line of argument and we'll be forced to conclude, maybe, that whenever Jeff Ooi posts something about "X", we would be best served by talking about the weather.

Maybe that's what Mr Guna wants.

I believe freedom for speech in PUBLIC should be restricted to those who are well educated and mannered. If freedom for speech in PUBLIC is available to all pathethic innuendos out there, this is what you get today.

Be a man. Talk is cheap, saying urself is chicken under anonymous identity is even cheaper. QUOTE: Juslo August 30, 2006 12:10 PM

Indeed, felt ashamed on behalf of these Malaysian, me too. Signing out for not being able to face harsh comments from certain parties, which have no manner and chicken-teaser.

Be accountable for what you say and what you do. Walk the talk.

juslo wrt kongkay as well:

"like his namesake, his writing should be taken with a pinch of salt... [ DELETED - Defamatory innuendos ]

Posted by: kongkay | August 30, 2006 12:36 PM

how is 'guna-[ DELETED ]' defamatory??.." I need to ask how does Juslo know the DELETE is as he commented a [play on Guna's name thus "'guna-se-garam'"?
If what I suspect is true, that Juslo is working hand-in-glove with kingkay, then I question his/their motive.

I think juslo has wasted lots of people's time esp this host jeffooi's -- hey, don't be just mere AGITATORS. TAKE ON JEFF'S CHALLENGE -- I ADD MY VOICE TO HIS TOO AS A ONE-AND-HALF-YEAR-OLD BLOGGER (INSPIRED BY JEFF TO START...) -- the way you comment to endlessly pursue side-topics is ibn a fashion that Jeff has only one conversationist to respond to, but the reality is, a Blogger as duty-bound has to interact with MANY commenters, not vice versa, as a Commenter has an option of how many times he wishes to make a fool of himself sometimes.

dear whling

[ DELETED - Totally off-tangent, off topic and irrelevant to the original blog context.]

dear desiderata,

[ DELETED - Totally off-tangent, off topic and irrelevant to the original blog context. Please don;t hijack my blog topic.]

....so is the PM still considered a "PM", or should we call him Premier, you know, like in China? Since that seems to be the direction in the terms of freedom of expression.

Why demonise blogs? Why not demonise internet forums which are 100 times worse than blogs?

The cool thing about this whole thing is. If anyone writes anything bad about you, you can also do what Mr PG do and comprain. :P

Hmmm... let's start with daftoi :)

dear desiderata,

[ DELETED - Totally off-tangent, off topic and irrelevant to the original blog context.]

Thumbs up Juslo, you don't have the time to start a blog but you've the time to reply conversations almost instantly.

Thumbs up.

skthew,

t[ DELETED - Totally off-tangent, off topic and irrelevant to the original blog context.]

anyways, jeff, let's all adhere to the word of law, and maintain composure in our comments...

even if the entire idea of censoring blogs due to content which they call slander but is just a person's opinion based on the facts, which can be corrected if there were proof that his information is wrong....

let's maintain our open-mindedness on this issue, until we can decide whether or not it is legal to burn a flag as a sign of protest, even if it is our own....

Please note what I wrote,

freedom of speech in PUBLIC.

If you choose to talk cock in your own hut, nobody can stop you. Please wear spec and write a better letter to Content Forum, aye?

QUOTE: i will "write a decent letter to express my views on the whole thing for the attention of the Content Forum." Posted by: juslo | August 30, 2006 10:47 AM

I agree with desiderata that we are wasting our time with a "person?" who repeatedly admiting that he is a chicken. This is not a defamatory statement as these were posted here, Posted by: juslo | August 30, 2006 02:19 PM, here, Posted by: juslo | August 30, 2006 01:33 PM, and here Posted by: juslo | August 30, 2006 12:10 PM. by Juslo under anonymous identity. Cheap.

I chose to voice out again to make my view clearer before I'm signing for the second time, sorry for that.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN "MASS" PUBLIC,

Be accountable on what you said. Don't let your ego take over your brain.

Be responsible.

My sincere apology.

Hi Jeff,
You are still championing Freedom of Speech (I hope).

e.g of a totalitarian goverment cencorship which i fear :
The Chinese government has developed some of the most sophisticated forms of internet censorship in order to control or eliminate access to information on sensitive topics such as the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, Falun Gong, Tibet, Taiwan, pornography or democracy. They have also enlisted the help of some American companies like MSN, who have subsequently been criticized by proponents of freedom of speech.

--
"If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." - George Orwell

dear whling,

[ DELETED - Totally off-tangent, off topic and irrelevant to the original blog context.]

JEFF OOI says: In the last five consecutive posting by this commenter, NONE is attending to the blog topic and its context: "Is self-regulation from the perspectives of existing cyberlaw unworkable in Malaysia?

Jeff,

i was introduced to your blog when i read roslan sms blog site last month and he did a cross reference to your blog. and wow did it really open my eyes to a new horizon!!! your kind of reporting was different, for example you provide cross references to other sites.

on issues of taking responsibilites when somebody post a comment in your blog, i believe writers should exercise moderation and self-censorship is good. where else can you put forward your ideas, opinions or discussions where people can comment or hackle you on it. being able to do so is a basic democratic process where everybody is entitled to their views. however, you are also liable for what you say.

i have followed closely todays posting and noticed that everybody can post anything they want to and this bellies what i've said earlier that we do have the rights to write.

for juslo, if you feel not confortable with this site, do what jeff and others have advised you to do : open your own blog.

to you jeff, keep your chin up and wish you all the best.

JEFF OOI says: This is not what lsk described as "circle jerk" and I thank you for visiting this site via my friend's Roslan SMS.

Troll? FUD? -.-

Tiredguy,

For your information, eventhough I savour the freedom of speech, I do appreciate the cencorship held in the PRC.

Being in the PRC for years, studied economics (effects after effects), chinese history, chinese behaviors/attitudes/level of education, I appreciate that's the way of maintaining peace after considering current social economics situation of PRC eventhough it's not an ideal way of handling people and human rights.

Imagine 1.3 billion people, whereby a lot of them based on my observation, I can't comment on the proportion as I don't have the relevant data, are not well educated/mannered even for those who graduated from university. This is due to various historical and present difficulties faced by the PRC, e.g. communism was practised, living was/is difficult for certain parts of PRC (if it was not, why chinese had to migrate to Malaysia), competition among others are harsh and etc.

These factors may create dissatisfaction/discontent among people, which eventually may rise to riots like Indonesia. On the right notes, the censorship is to curb uncivilised comment/arrangement/congregration which may destroy the PRC govern. efforts on improving its economy.

A country with 1.3 billion people can not afford to have riots in place. Of course, there are parties who wish to see PRC in chaos due to their benefits.

Before anyone shout for freedom for speech, please consider whether we are qualified for that.

Of course, I strongly believe that Malaysia is barely affordable for freedom of speech except for certain unconsiderate people.

However, please note that freedom of speech is neither to be abused or used/controlled for personnal agenda. Without this precondition, freedom of speech is crap.

Sorry for breaking my words for the third times as I believe I need to clear the myth about freedom of speech in PRC. Only until certain point in time, cencorship is still required to be enforced in the PRC.

And grow up please, chinese improves everday, and we Malaysian are still quarrelling among ourselves.

My sincere apology.

Sorry for running over the topic.

jeff, oh jeff!!

if u want to censor me, just say it. i'm not the only 1 'off tangent', so y dont u DELETE 90% of the above comments??

looks like your lack of maturity n the understanding of FREE SPEECH AND CENSORSHIP - intricately linked to the idea of self-regulation but u chose to spare yourself the embarrassments - has caught up with u. time to say goodbye, then?

(well, unless u r making a fool out of yourself again, i'll b BACK!! haha!!!!)

send my regards to your boss PG!! he's 1 lucky boss to have u as his ass.

Sorry again, I need to pen down my appreciation towards Jeff Ooi for hosting this blog, it needs courage, determination, energy, life, knowledge, networks, time and financial resources.

It has truly opened up my thoughts and some news which were not openly available/hidden/forgotten.

Thanks,

kennysia: Why demonise blogs? Why not demonise internet forums which are 100 times worse than blogs?

seriously dude, cut some slack off the politicians and so-called "journalists" lah! they are already having a hard time trying to understand the nature of blogs and comments, and now you wanna bring up this revolutionary thing called AN INTERNET FORUM?!

now don't you dare open your mouth and reveal this underground movement called INTERNET FORUM thats been laughing at PG and all sorts of politicians in our country ah!

Jeff, sounds like ur taking bribe from the authorities..

JEFF OOI says: Let's see how soon you call me Tun Jeff ooi, and am made a director in Khazanah/ Sime Darby/ECM Libra Avenue? ;-)

anyways..just got back from putrajaya..Dato jamaludin Jarjis reiterated that there should be no censorship in internet. this should be in tonights news.

JEFF OOI says: This is not what lsk described as "circle jerk"...

you say no, i say yes, so what? just let the masses decide lah.

JEFF OOI says: I trust you will keep the tally, OK?

I fear that the comments on this subject are out of hand and going off topic more and more.
First of all we should forget PG totally this tick is irrelevant and so is his newspaper.
What he is trying to stir up is relevant.
I think you should make your own choice when you blog.
1. You moderate up to a certain level, but than if something slips through they might say you allowed it (approved) and try to hold you responsible.
2. You just make sure commenters give a valid email address (but than they can use their neighbours one...)
3. You do not moderate at all.

And if you want to read how 'educated' malaysians can behave? Visit one of the many forums that exist, than you know what mudslinging means.

If Jeff wants to moderate his comments it is his good right, because it is HIS blog. No special commission needed for that.

The problem is that to many Malaysians cannot post a comment without being ugly.
Scolding proves nothing, argueing can give a view or standpoint.
Not for nothing Malaysia is ranked 3rd from the bottom as most inpolite country in the world!
And the so called regulatory commission? Well its defunct within a year. As defunct as all other commissions in Malaysia.

juslo,

From your comments... know that you are pissed (with Jeff). I think it's become personal already between you an Jeff. And I hope if you want to fight with Jeff, please asked Jeff out and have a coffee talk over it, don't chicken here and there and waste bandwidth and sway other people off topic.

While you can keep barking like a dog, it yields nothing. And I hope you know that you are driving this topic worse. Maybe the CMCF want to consider if want to enforce PG rating for this site, but now after all your offensive comments, I think the authority have all the proofs already to implement PG for this side. Thanks a lot, chicken! I guess I can call you chicken because you admitted it, so it deemed not offensive. You have just helped Mr PG's cause and agendas, how much did he pay you?

You are damned right, you have your right to voice out, as you said, this is just a SPACE, but it is a voluntarily funded space by Jeff, I hope you put yourself in his shoe it is not easy to maintain this blog till this stage.

Please show some respect and do not destroy this site just because you have some issue with Jeff. Thank you.

[ DELETED - Totally off-tangent, off topic and irrelevant to the original blog context.]

JEFF OOI says:I will moderate in accordance to the provisions of Sections 211, 212, 213 of the CVMA1998 and related caused in the Content Code.

JEFF OOI says: This is for offensive online content/

then he said: [ DELETED - Totally off-tangent, off topic and irrelevant to the original blog context.]

This is pertaining to preventing my blog topics from being hijacked. Let's not triviliase this blog topic and its context: " Is self-regulation unworkable from the perspective of existing cyberlaw in Malaysia?" with specific relevance to what P Gunasegaram has written in The Edge. See the original blog topic if you have drifted and just looking for your fav "circle jerk'.

Gosh...somebody is living in a state of denial? Can somebody just wake this individual up and tell him that we are in the 21st century... expression and ability to communicate is no longer restricted to the traditional medium?

Can we all just move forward and say... time has changed, lets move on to the 21st century and give people an opportunity to express better and in their own style?

I will never want my kids to take instrution as per instruction. Let them have the confidence to express, think and most important of all, let them improve.

I wish i can build a time machine and bring back this individual to where he belongs.

I'm not good with technical law stuff but I do NOT think it is good to regulate Internet sites like blogs with laws.

By laws, to my own interpretation, would mean *something* like the following:
- do not express yourself against the government.
- do not express yourself against the people in power.
- do not say bad words.

While I do agree that there should be more control of expression, it would be the control of speech so that it would be more civil. Since this is Internet that we are talking about, it involves hundreds, thousands or even more expressing at the same time. It is not possible for one person or a select few to control. It will require a "community" to control the contents.

A government law controlling the Internet free speech, I think, is only wasting time and energy of the authority pass the law and scan through