Screenshots

Just watched the video. I cant make out what the "issues" being "debated" were, but it was quite clear who the agressors were.

I know that if I use "monkeys" as a descriptive term here, some might get offended and may even be tempted to shout "racist". In all fairness to the animal rights groups, any use of any animal terms to describe the behaviour of these assholes here would probably be an insult to the animals. So, what actions will be taken against these simians?

Call me a killjoy, but somehow I doubt any action will be taken. Conversely, actions may be taken against the non-agressors for "instigating" the whole fracas by doing something "insensitive". Action may also be taken against the one who videotaped the fracas for "presenting the university in a poor light."

I looked at the video.

Well, well, well. Malaysia, I fear for you.

The Malays (or what looked like Malays -- you never know, the authorities may pull one of them up and whadayaknow, he's a Chinese after all!), for all the rhetoric of being tolerant people, are rather the bigots.

Where's the discourse? Where's the reasoned discussion of the issues? Or are our graduates so brainless that they only how to spew hot air?

saw the video but not sure what the issue was except for a few thugs harrasing a few students. can some help summarise what was written in chinese in merderka review. Thank you in advance

Can't figure what it was all about. Brain washing as described, for the malays, begin in the government boarding schools. Some malay students do not like the atmosphere in those schools, but coerced by their parents to stay due to better opportunities that may arise to they being there. After several years, they will end up being a different person, probably like the ones you see here. Orientation in these schools are sometimes brutal. And to add to rafidah's statement that there are too many male students acting like "pondans" in the universities, could it be that male students were sexually abused in the dormitories?

For one who don't read chinese and after watching the video I came to the conclusion that one Non Malay student sat with a small notice in Chinese probably protesting against the ethnic book in question and it got rowdy and the security guard was hapless to stop the shouting and shoving match.
Guess our Uni students have a long way to maturity by not allowing an opinion to be 'voiced' !
Malaysians are too sensitive to issues like this and I can only blame our school system that failed to have more 'integration' activities while promoting separate activities that can only promote race division !

Congratulations to the student for standing up for what he believes in. Far too often people take the easy way out not wanting to UPSET THE APPLECART.

I wish all blogs in Malaysia would put this video on their website for the world to see. Maybe the aggressors will see themselves on video and be ashamed of the way they act.

Not sure if NIGHTCALLER still comes around these parts but his tagline is most appropriate right now.

GOOD NIGHT MALAYSIA WHEREVER YOU ARE.

haha. Vision 2020? Malaysia with a mature, educated, upstanding, civilised, morally uprighteous citizenship? all we can found, in large numbers, are a bunch of barbarians who do not understand freedom of speech and civil ity masquerading as undergraduates as a result of our "meritocracry".

rocky, you can read the news in english on Malaysiakini now, here is the link
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/54100 I have the copy and I can share it, just send me a mail.
Several bloggers have mentioned this matter on their blog. Not only this, this video clips was uploaded to YouTube by many people,
http://www.youtube.com/results?search=UPM%2C+Malaysia&search_type=search_videos&search=Search

Appalling!

The fact that this sort thing happened in a prominent Malaysian university goes to show how long we still have to go for true "Bangsa Malaysia".

Is there no action taken on these group of thugs?

How come the govt does not haul in these faggots for inciting racial hatred.

The last I knew..the Sedition Act has not been repealed.

Is a certain group in this country above the law??

And what have the police to say. ??
Surely you don't need a police report to start investigations.

But most appaling was the Higher Education Minister defence of the issue. Maybe he is playing too much politics to be in education??

Time to go..Mr Minister?? I mean go get lost.

Melaka time: Bangsa-bangsa :-)
1957: Bangsa Malaysia !!
1969: Bangsa Malaysia ??
2006: Bangsa Malaysia :-(

I feel so sad watching the video. But we must keep holding out our hands to each other and build bridges.

When these thugs later graduated and cannot find jobs, our government will take them in as government servant. Soon they will become the pengarah of various agencies and run the government machinery.

If you put kampung people to run university, they will get lots of kampung students that make them look less dumb. Yes, you can argue some of the dean help the "Phd" titles.

But it is similar to Cannibals that learn to use Spoon and fork for cannibalism after graduate.

And don't forget this add salt to the wound of "unemployable graduates".

Some of the comments I read here is appalling, some of you guys is taking the same stance as the “guideline” of the seditious guidebook of generalizing a certain race or group of people. Shame on you! Not kampong people are like that or Malays for that matter, in group there’ll always be couple of bad eggs. Similarly, what is seditious in the guidebook, for example blaming Indian youths in the Medan riots and generalizing the Chinese in the May riot issue is not right. Though we do not condone the behavior of those hooligans harassing the lone protestor, the comments I read here of generalizing the thugs as kampong people, Malays are thugs…aren’t we all the same too acting on our bigots and racists impulse. SHAME ON YOU GUYS!!! No wonder, we are set back so many years!

mlkview's comments hit the nail right on it's head. It's totally unfair and wrong to judge an entire ehtnic race by the actions of some testosterone- pumped jocks. Just like it's unfair to say that the gangsters who contributed to Kg Medan incident are a true representation of the general Indian community, and that 1969 riots were caused by the DAP. This thread is but a snapshot of how's Malaysians react to ethnic based issues. We split right across ethnic lines showing distrust and revealing our pent up fears. Like it or not, we're a nation teethering on the brink like a peg of gunpowder awaiting a flash of fire to ignite. I hope the gov't has a better solution than teaching ethnic relation to undergrads...but I somehow doubt that anyone competent exists within the coridors of powers with a solution...Pray for Malaysia..

Still....

Violent acts of whatever justification should be condemned and punishment should be meted out on those responsible, to prevent future accurance of such senseless and irresponsible act.

What say you?

The higher education minister? He is a complete failure. First he said the book has nothing wrong it will not be withdrawn, then he said it is only a guideline and now he said even it is a guiideline it will be withdrawn immediately. hahaha... talks faster than his brain make him farts through his mouth..

Enroute home, i am typing this from e-Lounge No.10 in HKIA, a thriving terminal full of east and west. It's a melting pot of white, black, brown and yellow, and of different cultures coexisting on easy street in a swirl of activities by peoples of all ages and miens and lingua. They're all going somewhere, confidently enjoined by their objectives of business and/or pleasure. Somehow, one senses from the scene around that the notion of ethnic relations if it's not be be determined by politicians or politically-inclined academicians should be founded on practicalities based on modern, civil, socially conscious codes of conduct. Not fanciful idealism, not political motivations, just good citizenry and respect for one's fellow-men.

I am also sensing the passing of our country; the events and revelations which have unfolded this past year in Malaysia have shown we're writing our own epitaph as a nation in so many ways. Everyday something echoes out from some past decision which shows thinking processes by people who could only...sense, but fail to ...realize. The result is that entire generations are standing still, caught in a mental timewarp that refuses to aerate itself in order to progress. The brains have shrunk, and the coconut shells have enlarged.

So, which country has a PM and exPM engaged in internecine war over future spoils?

Which political party has a kitty of RM8 billion accumulated by dubious means, and who's to prosecute?

Which society has over 30,000 unemployed graduates who could very well benefit from some of that kitty in the very coffers of a party that is supposed to help citizens up?

Which minister now loudly assuming oversight role who was so silent about past miscreances of yonder 22 years, including some RM30 million so understood to be siphoned out of the Penang bridge contract by someone now dead?

Umno should candidly reexamine itself; let us be blunt - it should tear its own guts out for once.

Because if we continue the way we're doing, Malaysia will be relegated to third world, permanently, and that would be tragic because we once had the heritage of rightsized aapproaches to everything. In my memory anyway.

Now, if all of HKIA's internet-access terminals work without fail, why can't ours in KLIA?

Points to ponder..

1. Isn't it possible that the whole thing was staged to illicit a response and to record that response for a purpose?

2. Isn't it possible that the video could be used to discriminate against the Malays? The webpage is obviously written in Chinese, and there are only Chinese responses allowed.

3. Isn't is possible that there is a concerted effort by the other racial groups to undermine and replace the Malays?

I throw these questions out not because they are my opinions, but they could very well be questions posed by certain quarters.

To what extent should an issue be debated? Until a change is made? Or until the majority decides the outcome of the debate?

The incident in the video is sad, because it shows poor judgement on everyone involved, from the protestor who is makes and ill judged attempt to protest, and to make an even bigger mistake to continue his protest, to those who basically acted like monkees in trying to get him to leave. When you have 2 sides who are not willing to backdown from a confrontation, then you get the situation in the video.

The video is also bad evidence. It certainly doesn't tell the whole story, and for those who are not Malaysians, they won't have a clue at whats going on. And its human nature to blame the mob then the hapless individual even the individual deserved it.

I think the country is going through a definitive period of its life. The issue at hand is no longer the formation of Bangsa Malaysia, the issue is who shall be the dominant racial group in the coming years.

A video like this puts our response system to the test. What is the test?

To prove to ourselves that we are easily provoked, easily go emotional, and easily do tit for tat?

Or, to prove to ourselves that we have a strong level of self-control?

It would be great if each of us is given an opportunity to break up a group of emotionally-charged people. It requires some strong qualities in human behaviour.

It is a test of our ability to connect with people under severe circumstances.

I remember the lawmakers who threw chairs and punches in the Taiwan parliament. So, we need people who know how to handle strife and conflict whether in Malaysia, Taiwan, or other parts of the world.

I wish to add:

If you and I are not willing to learn how to handle strife and conflict, then whom do we depend on?

If you were there at the UPM incident, could you cool down the temperature? Or, would you help to launch more insults or even punches?

alfabob, perhaps you watch the video from standpoint that far from CIVILISED behaviour.
Just tell me, should one
- protest in UN-civilised manners
- Use PHYSICAL violent on other opposing FEMALE
- give immatuer signage and act to the other

And bare in mind that those people doing it is UNDERGRADUATE, so call BIASWISWA.

mlkview, sorry if I use the stereotype "kampung" to refer those bunch of people. But please don't spin my word that I use the "kampung" on those hooligans. What I refer "Kampung" is the bunch of people that run UPM. (yes, it is yet another stereotype)

here is the news in English, please have a look. http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/54100
This will help you understand the whole incident happen in UPM on 18th July 2006.

moo_t, it is call MAHASISWA(male) MAHASISWI(female)not BIASWISWA :) Must use MAHA one...
But, they are not qualified to call themselves as Mahasiswa or UNDERGRADUATE. They are not!
alfabob, you can log on to Malaysiakini to understand the whole story of that movie clips.

Moo_t

1. Should the fellow be allowed to protest at all if he makes most of the people there uncomfortable? And to what extent should the 'mob' be expected to let the protestor protest? They asked him to leave nicely, he chose not to, and when things got rowdy, he stood his ground. In the end, you get an ugly scene. Thats what I said, when you have to obstinate parties, you could get a situation as in the video. And for the protestor, he wins either way. If he's allowed to protest at the expense of the majority, he accomplishes his objectives. If he gets thrashed by the majority, he uses the video as evidence. Perfect MO for instigating a response. Also a dilemma most governments are hard pressed to solve, to stop protests by not using force?? How is that ever possible??

2. I could be wrong, but where in the video was there ever a case of a female being physically threatened by a male? Heckling yes, but threatened? Using violence??

**Note** I'm commenting only on the video scenes, not on the writeup, as I've got no access to it.

3. Immature signs, dude, thats the least of the problems here. Did the 'mob' go overboard, sure, but whatever the issue, those protestors created a situation where the 'mob' responded to.

4. Sorry, don't know whether they are biasiswa holders or not. Not everyone who goes to an IPTA are scholars. If they are, fair game, they should be hauled and inquired on the whole business, as well those protestors as well.

As in my original posts, this whole incident is sparked by a tremendous lack of judgement by the parties.

One other thing... was the protestor in question expelled from the campus?? Whatever the reasons, it should be pretty serious to rile people up so much.

To reply to dignity.. I for one would have tried to stop everyone from going for each others throats. The situation clearly shows parties trying to achieve dominance over each other in that situation. I truly blame the mob for their reactions.. it is shameful to see them behave in that way, (whats with the shoes??), but I also blame the protestors for not extending and escaping from the situation.

I don't understand what is going on in the video.

However, I find it appalling when people suggest that the protestor is at fault just because it makes others feel uncomfortable. This is exactly what is wrong with the so called "political correctness". Just because you have an opinion that people should bend over backwards to bullies doesn't mean it's wrong for people who won't. Its essentially exactly like the argument with gals wearing mini skirts and being raped and other form just like it.

Its not wrong to protest. Its not wrong to voice your opinion. Its not wrong to stand by your ideals or beliefs. Its only wrong when you it as an EXCUSE AND REASON to commit an act of violence and infringe on the rights of others.

I really find it appalling for people to even blame the protestors for STANDING UP TO THEIR BELIEFS AND NOT RUNNING AWAY!!

What is wrong with Malaysian these days? Cultural sensitiveness? Who in the hell is drawing those lines and defining what cultural sensitiveness is?

This is exactly whats wrong with the Sedition Act! This is whats wrong with the UUCA act! This is exactly what is wrong with any law that suppress any kind of view that differs from an acceptable political view. This is exactly whats wrong with Malaysia.

He is not protest anything there. That incident happen at Kolej 12, UPM. I attach the news from Malaysiakini (since Malaysiakini's server is down) here. Have a look.

------------------------

UPM student alleges assault by fellow-students
Jul 19, 06 12:50pm

(translation) A student representative of an (anti-establishment) group in Universiti Putra Malaysia (UPM) has claimed that she was physically assaulted while conducting an activity for new students. Students Progressive Front (SPF) member Wong Chai Yi claimed she was shoved so hard by members of the university student council, that she fell. She said the incident occurred on Monday when five members of her group set up a help counter at 6.30pm at a hostel to provide information on their activities to new undergraduates and offer advice to those with problems.

Wong told malaysiakini that about 40 students - led by the council president - surrounded her group members and scolded them harshly for setting up the counter when the SPF is not a registered group. He told us to leave within 10 minutes, saying he did not want any trouble, but we refused to go. They surrounded us and removed our brochures, tables and chairs, and our belongings, to force us to leave, She said.

While doing so, they shouted at us and pushed us out of the way. A security guard witnessed this - instead of stopping them, he joined them in pushing us. Chinese-language news portal merdekareview posted a report yesterday by a trainee journalist who was covering the event. She alleged that she too was pushed and fell, dropping her camera. Wong said a SPF member contacted Sri Serdang police for assistance, but that they did not respond. Instead, the students were told to get help from campus security personnel. A call was then placed to Subang Jaya police which sent a patrol car at about 7.30pm, and prevented the situation from getting out of hand. They also advised Wong to lodge a police report at the Sri Serdang station. This was allegedly the second such incident at the campus involving SPF at UPM.

------------------------

kenji,

thanks for the story.

Looking at the whole issue, I agree we should not generalise it as such race is so and so. Yes the issue looks racial cos of who is involved. also no need to make rude remarks about kampung people. you don't need to be from kampung to be rude and vulgar or stupid.

But what bothers me, here is we have a president of a student body, who should represent all the students, is not able to control the crowd he has with him and if he is the person shouting, than he is even unable to control his own emotions.

Yes the SPF would not budge but does that mean you take matters in your own hand. worse of all the girls were pushed.what kind of guys are they?Is this the kind of leadership in UPM? Surely there are other ways to tackle the matter but getting the crowd all wild and rowdy is surely not the way. and attacking the weak and out numbered is also not the way. And he must have not been overly smart knowing they were being recorded. maybe they are not afraid of any action taken against them or tey are above the law.

So I hope UPM look at this case and take the required actions against the wild boys of UPM lead by the student council president. SPF should be allowed to register and allowed to organise their events within the rules and regulations. UPM can't let this go by without any stren action. Otherwise it will set a precedent and it will be free for all.

2SaNe,

Irregardless of whether this is a protest or not, the fact of the matter is protests of any kind in Malaysia is governed by certain laws, (yes, the Sedition Act is one of them). If the protest has been done in accordance to the law, fine, if not, then those who chose to protest without regard to the law should also be aware of the consequences.

In this case, there was no protest, yet one must asked whether the SPF, as a non-registered body had the right to set up their booth there in the first place.

Those people made choices, and they should be prepared for the consequences of their choices. Just like the 'mob' needs to face to the consequences of their actions, the 'protestors' also need to understand that when they decided to not cooperate and stood their ground, they should be ready for the consequences of that.

In allowing protests and the such, it should never be against the wants of the majority. I thought thats simple enough to understand, and isn't that the pinacle of democracy, that the majority decides on an issue. The SPF people were clearly a minority, and they chose to aggravate the majority.

Lets put it this way, take the protestors as smokers. You don't allow them to smoke in a non smoking area because it could irritate the majority of the people. Sure, its a very simple analogy,but why shouldn't simple analogy is used?

One last thing, the video did not show any shoving of women whatsoever. At least I didn't see any.

rocky, I fully agree with you. But, I doubt any action will be taken by UPM. Just look at this news report on The Sun "Mob heckles seven undergrads in UPM (http://sun2surf.com/article.cfm?id=14837)

I got time. I'll bite..

alfabob,

Irregardless of whether this is a protest or not, the fact of the matter is protests of any kind in Malaysia is governed by certain laws, (yes, the Sedition Act is one of them). If the protest has been done in accordance to the law, fine, if not, then those who chose to protest without regard to the law should also be aware of the consequences.

I agree that whoever choose to go against the law should face the consequences.

However, something that is illegal doesn't always mean it's morally wrong. Even so, I called to question the the intepretation of the constitution and certain laws in Malaysia on the legality of 'the act of protest' itself but I digress.

Voicing ones view should never be supresss in any way just because it differs from a popular view. Only when an act of violence or an act that infringe on the right of others has been committed should one criminalize that aggressor.

If you were to ban others for voicing their views/protest on the pretext that it incite violence and racial tension, you just ban the whole merdeka movement by our founding fathers. They too voice their views which promotes racial tension and incite violence against the British. That is why the Sedition Act is a fallacy and should be repeal.

In this case, there was no protest, yet one must asked whether the SPF, as a non-registered body had the right to set up their booth there in the first place.

I agree that is the right question to ask.

Those people made choices, and they should be prepared for the consequences of their choices. Just like the 'mob' needs to face to the consequences of their actions, the 'protestors' also need to understand that when they decided to not cooperate and stood their ground, they should be ready for the consequences of that.

Yes they accept the consequences of not cooperating with the members of the student council and I applaud them for their integrity. What they did may have been illegal depending on the policy set by UPM (I don't know their policy), but its not morally wrong.

In allowing protests and the such, it should never be against the wants of the majority. I thought thats simple enough to understand, and isn't that the pinacle of democracy, that the majority decides on an issue.

Yes, democracy favours the majority greatly but it is a fallacy to suggest that the majority is always right! I find it appalling that you would suggest that the majority should discriminate against the minorities in this country. I am extremely disgusted that you would even suggest that the majority should disregard the rights of the minorities. This is exactly the kind of thoughts and actions feared by minorities in this country!

The SPF people were clearly a minority, and they chose to aggravate the majority.

Yes, it's cleary demonstrated that by refusing to comply with the student council will aggravate them to start a shoving match. Exactly what kind of lesson are we teaching our kids again?

Lets put it this way, take the protestors as smokers. You don't allow them to smoke in a non smoking area because it could irritate the majority of the people.

Your analogy is flawed and misleading. Smoking is a health issue and not an issue between the majority and minority like you describe. Mature-thinking adults can endangered their health all they want by smoking but should not endangered the health of others who clearly wants no part in the act of deterioting their own health. That is why non-smoking and smoking areas exist. That is why the smokers can smoke in their own house all they want. That is why we don't ban smoking altogether. It wouldn't work even if they tried anyway but I digress again.

Sure, its a very simple analogy,but why shouldn't simple analogy is used?

No, you should never use simple analogy to simplify a complicated matter! You use analogy to describe a matter that is similar!

I agree that using any kind of violence or intimidation against any people is very uncivilised and this shows how much more work we need to do to acheive a truly harmonious multi-ethnic country. We really need to be more transparent and I don't think the foundation to achieve this goal is strong enough. Anyone knows that a great great building without a solid foundation will fall the hardest. It's even dangerous. Our leaders need to act more rather than just verbally announcing Malaysia boleh! The dream of achieving a harmonious country is a good start but I don't see any sincere plan for the dream (NEP? Necessary now? We got Petronas right?). After a while, people will just think it's a cry wolf thing and get tired. First of all, you need to get rid of all the double standards of how minorities are treated. Those that really need help are those who are poor/unfortunate regardless of their ethnic background. We just can't classify Bumiputras are poor now and need help. Bumiputras can stand on their feet now and stop treating them like they can't survive without the government support. Are Orang Aslis helped so much? Come on, let's have real policy for real people for a real sustainable future. Do you mean a hundred years from now, our children with Malaysian born ancestors regardless of their ethnic background still shouldn't be Bumiputras? Help the poor and needy, not the entire race...
For this case, I think we deserve a detailed report up till the root of the problem. Maybe for this case, the Chinese are not respectful at the very beginning before this incident that's why we have made some of the aggressor so angry? I am still not supporting that they have to be treated this way but we need a transparent and truthful report (is that too hopeful?) before we make whatsoever judgement. This 3 minute video clip is surely not enough to judge. Who knows maybe the protestor is an aggressor before this video and that's why the aggressor are now retaliating? That's just an assumption. You know where I am getting at right?
Generalising how the majority population treats the minority based on this video clip alone is very dangerous. Those who comment and distribute this clip must do so in a responsible way.

The generalisation occurs because this isn't the first time the minorities have felt not welcomed in this country. This isn't a one-time incident by a few bad eggs. We're still being treated as immigrants, often being told that we're not wanted in this country and that we should leave if we can't come to terms with the fact that we will always be treated as second-class citizens.

Why can one Malaysian make another feel that way and get away with it?

I strongly protest the word kampung used to comment on the behaviour above.

Please do not incite.

ok, lets not incite racial hatred in this incident. It is not Malays bully chinese. It is rater the stupid bully the brainy. when u cant beat them in studies, u beat them, haha.When u hv a leader wielding keris, u hv followers doing same thing soon. So end of the stry is already known. Semuanya OK! Just close one eye. Lets build more schools under 9MP and churn out more gangsters and who knows the same ppl in the video today might turn out to be your kids' teacher one day. Half baked students now, half baked teachers later. And your kids? Quarter pounder students!

" Half baked students now, half baked teachers later. And your kids? Quarter pounder students!"

heh heh...makes me crave for pastries and beef burgers.

Let's all sincerely hope that we will not have to export our 1/4 pounders abroad as contract workers in a foreign country by that time. If we all get it wrong, is this not a possible scenario ?

Pak Lah broke his silence and order withdrawal of the sedition and flawed "ethnic guidebook".

Looking at the opinions expressed so far, it is quite obvious that our friend - alfabob, is of the minority view here. If we apply his theory, dear alfabob, please let us know what are those actions that we can take on you and you will still say that it is acceptable.....

Simplicity has given a very relevant example - obviously, while we may engage alfabob in debate and discussion, we also respect his ( her ? ) right to have a different view on the matter - even though it seems to be a minority view.

Michael Lee, you are right. Alfabob is of the minority's view.

....just like the guy who protested at UPM.

Just like what happened in UPM, the same thing happened here, only it involves a blogger with a "minority view". And the rest just hentam the blogger, maybe because they can connect with the majority.

Its herd mentality, one following the others.

Coming back to the issue of bullying.....and how come a Merdeka Review cameramen/pixmen was there throughout the whole ordeal? They KNEW something is gonna happen.

At the same time, maybe someone should change the storyline of the May 13 incident at wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_13_Incident

maybe someone should protest at the wikipedia office as well....

By not taking action on these trouble making students, and failure to address the issue openly and without prejudice, the relevant authority is sending the message that:

-- gangsterism is OK
-- mob violent is OK
-- cruelty against your fellow human beings is OK
-- irresponsible and vulgar behavior is OK

The reputation and sanctity of this public university will most certainly effected.

What sort of youths are we producing?

holiday - am trying to follow your line - but which part of the Wiki do you have problems with ? As far as I can understand, it starts with " the TERM used to ... " - then talks about " affirmative action " as well as " browbeating the opposition "

Folks

I will put my money any time that these thugs at UPM involved in the scuffle are members, if not all, of UMNO Youth orsympathesizers of UMNO Youth. I won't surprised this scuffle had the blessing of the UMNO Youth leadership.

The UPM establishment are so politically-entrenched with UMNO and UMNO Youth, that you might think the UPM is guided by the under-hand policies of UMNO and UMNO Youth instead of by Govt. Even the Ministry of Higher Education is crawled with UMNO and UMNO Youth apparatchiks in the bureaucracy who cannot distinguished between partisan politics and running affairs of govt.

MCA and MCA Youth? They ran and hide under the tables in UPM lecture halls and under hostel beds.

That's what you get for electing the parties for running this running every 5 years. And at every election time, the damn Malaysian Chinese get bought off with all the promises and feel-good policies of UMNO that last only ONE Month after the polling night.

Bitten once, shame on you, bitten twice sham on me... that's for MCA.

Just like what happened in UPM, the same thing happened here, only it involves a blogger with a "minority view". And the rest just hentam the blogger, maybe because they can connect with the majority.

Its herd mentality, one following the others.

I fail to find a logic in that statement. Could you elaborate in what way there are similarities between what happen in UPM and here? I did not see alfrabob getting banned from voicing his view or anyone here starting a shoving match with him.

At the same time, maybe someone should change the storyline of the May 13 incident at wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_13_Incident

maybe someone should protest at the wikipedia office as well....

I assume you are new to wikipedia. Do you know you could edit that particular page if you find it lacking in accuracy? But do bear in mind though, any major change should be noted in the dicusssion page, provided a citation from a proper and reliable source and have at least reach a consensus regarding the format of the article..

...or you will just irritate the editors who spend their previous time in writing that particular article and start a revert war.

On a side note, I think its proper to mention that one should be cautious of anyone passing opinion as facts in history and even experts/historian have a bias tendency.

History should be written by history itself.

2Sane,

Let me point out that my discussion has never been on whether an action is morally right or wrong. The fact of the matter is, in determining what is right or wrong, we've digressed to what is legal or not, and for good reason, because the law can only act on what is not legal, not what is 'right' or 'wrong'. You can say that certain laws are wrong, and thats fine, but there are other avenues for that sort of action.

Now this fellow decided to voice his opinion, nothing wrong with that, yet he did not take any action to make his protest 'legal'. So literally, his actions were illegal. And he had to face the legal consequences. Is the mob heckling him the legal consequence? No, but if you choose to aggravate a party, you better be prepared to face the reactions of that party.

So what am I trying to say? The guy was way over his head if he thought he was going to make any changes to peoples perception by harping out what he wanted to say, in that situation and in that condition. He was in no position to do any good, and he should have disengaged and lodge a complaint whatever. He chose to stand his ground, on an untenable situation and was heckled over it. He was impractical. Can you admire his integrity, sure.. but his methodology is flawed. As I said before, when you are in a situation where 2 sides are obstinate, this is what you get.

Some commented I'm the minority here. Fair enough, I guess I am. Now if you lot and I were in a hall together and there is hostility towads the minority view, I'd disengage and proceed with an alternative plan. To what good would heckling each other do.. really?

Lastly, I'm all for protecting minority rights. But from a practical point of view, for minority rights to be protected, there must be a 'buy in' from the majority. The sitation present in the video was not conducive for any 'buy in' and it should have been left at that.

Whatever it is, the fellow suceeded in instigating the majority, I mean, they looked really unhappy with this fellow. What was the motive? Why again was there a video camera to record all of this?

As for my example, I stand by it. At the crux of it, someone is conducting an act in which another party is uncomfortable with. Just like you said that adults who do not want to endanger themselves to the affects of other peoples smokes, the fact here is the majority does not want to be aggravated by this people. And just like smoking, theres a place to voice your opinions, they should find those places and do it there.

Btw, Simplicity, what actions are you suggesting??

Crooked people with its crooked view, doesn’t straighten things out no matter how he argue.

Don’t get me wrong, I have friends, really good friends from all 3 races.

I just couldn’t understand and couldn’t tolerate how someone project the victim to become the aggressor.

And how does our education system fare, after 12 years of schooling to produce such a violent UNI student? Or someone rather call them “monkey”.

Obviously the commenter I m going to mention below is advocate for violence. Judging from those words, hes no better than those “monkey”.

(His argument start like this)
Irregardless of whether this is a protest or not, the fact of the matter is protests of any kind in Malaysia is governed by certain laws, (yes, the Sedition Act is one of them). If the protest has been done in accordance to the law, fine, if not, then those who chose to protest without regard to the law should also be aware of the consequences.
In this case, there was no protest, yet one must asked whether the SPF, as a non-registered body had the right to set up their booth there in the first place.

Question:
Even if the registration counter is illegal, who are you pass those violent judgment? Are you advocating mob violence and mob justice? Isn’t there always some “proper channel” as touted by our beloved politician? One moment you are talking about legality, another you are justifying mobs justice. Make up your mind!

(More nonsense)
Those people made choices, and they should be prepared for the consequences of their choices. Just like the 'mob' needs to face to the consequences of their actions, the 'protestors' also need to understand that when they decided to not cooperate and stood their ground, they should be ready for the consequences of that.

Question:
Haha. We are talking about setting up a registration counter peacefully in the most CIVILISED environment – A UNIVERSITY. And you are saying they deserve the rough up by the UNCIVILSED “MONKEY”? Are you sure you are not one of the aggressor in the scene? You sure you awake?

(A clearly bias and ignorant statement below)
In allowing protests and the such, it should never be against the wants of the majority. I thought thats simple enough to understand, and isn't that the pinacle of democracy, that the majority decides on an issue.

The SPF people were clearly a minority, and they chose to aggravate the majority.
Lets put it this way, take the protestors as smokers. You don't allow them to smoke in a non smoking area because it could irritate the majority of the people. Sure, its a very simple analogy,but why shouldn't simple analogy is used?

Illustrate this:
Say your daughter study in the USA. She wear headscarf to the UNI. The UNI ban headscarf. She set up a counter to protest peacefully ILLEGALLY (since she never apply permit to protest.) The Orang Putih then rape her, because they are annoyed and because they are the majority. My question to you: So is your daughter DESERVE it? And are you going to defend the orang putih?

Smoking is bad for health for EVERYONE. Period. Please don’t use such a half baked illustration to twist the fact. Refer to my first sentence.

(This is the sentence that piss me off.)
One last thing, the video did not show any shoving of women whatsoever. At least I didn't see any.

Brader, look at the time the police arrived. Not in the picture, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

But the thing that make me boil, is how irresponsible your sentence are. Not a tiny tint of concern for the victim. I can imagine you laughing at the picture and enjoying tremendously.

I hate racist and I hate violence even more. It doesn’t matter whether it’s affecting your mother or your sister, your father or your son. If violence can be justified in such a manner, in such a civilized place, by our “undergraduate”, our “future leader”, our “hope”, our “vision 2020” monkey, what future does it hold for us.

If you are violence advocate aka alfa pop-tart, you are welcome to support him. But before you do, please look into the mirror, look real hard. Do you see a beast or a human being?

what intrigue me is how long it apprently took for this "ethnic relation textbook" issue to appear on jeff's radar screen....
well done jeff. i look forward to the other "sensitive" issues showing up on your radar screen soon. perhaps when the pm agrees that a royal commission be setup for project m, it'll become news to you too....

Let me point out that my discussion has never been on whether an action is morally right or wrong.

I'm mere pointing out the fallacy in your argument that a person should be held responsible for the action of others. I then, point out that a person who protest is not morally wrong but could be seen as illegal in the law or against the policy of the university.

The fact of the matter is, in determining what is right or wrong, we've digressed to what is legal or not, and for good reason, because the law can only act on what is not legal, not what is 'right' or 'wrong'.

You got it the wrong way around. In determining what is right or wrong we based it in our morality. How we derive our morality from, is unique to each person. Some depends on good ol' common sense and some gain it from god. Then based on our morality we create laws. And its not the law itself that matters, its the interpretation of it.

Beside, I disagree a dependency on the law itself for your morality. That would be too dangerous.

You can say that certain laws are wrong, and thats fine, but there are other avenues for that sort of action.

One of the avenues is protesting.

Now this fellow decided to voice his opinion, nothing wrong with that, yet he did not take any action to make his protest 'legal'.

There is no basis for him to make it legal for the sake of it.

So literally, his actions were illegal. And he had to face the legal consequences.

It's only speculation at this point if its legal or even against regulation.

Is the mob heckling him the legal consequence? No, but if you choose to aggravate a party, you better be prepared to face the reactions of that party.

Are you implying that the person in the video whose act of refusal should be responsible for the actions of the student council? Are you implying that he deserve what he gets? Are you implying its a justification for the act of violence? Your 'extraordinary' logic really baffles me.

So what am I trying to say? The guy was way over his head if he thought he was going to make any changes to peoples perception by harping out what he wanted to say, in that situation and in that condition. He was in no position to do any good, and he should have disengaged and lodge a complaint whatever.

If you think this affair being highlighted in the media and have reach people like us is not consider 'any good' derive from his action, you must miss a lot of things in your daily life.

He chose to stand his ground, on an untenable situation and was heckled over it. He was impractical. Can you admire his integrity, sure.. but his methodology is flawed. As I said before, when you are in a situation where 2 sides are obstinate, this is what you get.

Damn, its just being impratical to get highlighted by the media over this.

Some commented I'm the minority here. Fair enough, I guess I am. Now if you lot and I were in a hall together and there is hostility towads the minority view, I'd disengage and proceed with an alternative plan. To what good would heckling each other do.. really?

You choose to run away. Others choose to stand their ground to make a point. Its just a matter of perspective really.

Lastly, I'm all for protecting minority rights. But from a practical point of view, for minority rights to be protected, there must be a 'buy in' from the majority. The sitation present in the video was not conducive for any 'buy in' and it should have been left at that.

I do not understand what you mean by 'buy in'. Please clarify.

However, if you think praticality must be involve to decide the rights of the minority, you probably think that its okay if the government should one day take over your house and demolish it for the particality of the majority.

Whatever it is, the fellow suceeded in instigating the majority, I mean, they looked really unhappy with this fellow. What was the motive?

Yeah, his clearly instigating the student council to start a shoving match. Look at his face, his was asking to get beaten up. Probably a fetish too.

Why again was there a video camera to record all of this?

And that camera, damn camera. Why is it there recording all the violent action of the student council? Probably a conscpiracy, to make them look stupid. Damn them. Damn!

As for my example, I stand by it. At the crux of it, someone is conducting an act in which another party is uncomfortable with. Just like you said that adults who do not want to endanger themselves to the affects of other peoples smokes, the fact here is the majority does not want to be aggravated by this people.

Its nice to simplify a very complicated matter right? Have you ever heard of the Straw Man argument?

And just like smoking, theres a place to voice your opinions, they should find those places and do it there.

Yeah. There should voice their opinion in a place where there are educated people just like you.. and not in the univer... oh wait..

In a related news, in some part of the world, people are led by moral authority and not an iron fist or through an act of violence.

Actually it is all kind of simple isn't it ? The majority will decide what is good for the minority - whatever it may be, and the minority should not do anything to aggravate this just in case the majority decide to take issue.
These haloed halls of learning are simply sowing the seeds of " you will not even speak across party lines - regardless of whether we are right or wrong. "
There are a couple of Ministers / Deputies, who are still licking their wounds right now.

alfabob,
In this case, there was no protest, yet one must asked whether the SPF, as a non-registered body had the right to set up their booth there in the first place.

Those people made choices, and they should be prepared for the consequences of their choices. Just like the 'mob' needs to face to the consequences of their actions, the 'protestors' also need to understand that when they decided to not cooperate and stood their ground, they should be ready for the consequences of that.

Yes, i agree that those protestor have broken UPM rules. But why the heck did those mob appoint themself as UPM police? Who give them the authority to act as the University Police? What will the mob do after this...bcoming the self appointed "Pengawai Pencegah Maksiat" & "Skuad Skodeng"?

The intelligent bunch of us should refrain from using personal attacks/name calling

as well as turning this whole debacle into a Malay v Chinese issue. We should all

be looking at this as an example of unruly/third world behaviour when dealing with

with opposing opinions and should not be followed.

I don't know why we are talking about a protest when the story was about the

illegal setting up of a counter offering welfare and advice to new students by an

unregistered student body.

Now we all know that every university has its own set of 'by-laws' and

'regulations' that specify what is allowed and what is not on campus. So if the

abovementioned act is illegal at UPM then there will be repercussions, but that

does not excuse the behaviour metered out to them by the group of other students.

The heckling and intimidation was uncalled for.

All they needed to do was:
1. State the reason for their disatisfaction clearly (i.e the counter was illegal)
2. If the other party refuses to acknowledge that reason, then provide a copy of

the by-laws and regualtions and point out where it states the act is illegal.

It's as simple as that. Alot of Malaysians want the status of being a developed

country, but unless we can change our third world mentality we can forget about it.

We can't even bloody put trash where it's supposed to go or clear our trays at the

local Mc D's for crying out loud!

Anyways to address some of the issues mentioned in "Posted by: |^2SaNe| | July 22,

2006 02:44 AM"

Is the mob heckling him the legal consequence? No, but if you choose to aggravate a

party, you better be prepared to face the reactions of that party.

The notion of 'causation', for every action there is a reaction. There is truth

when you say that if you disrupt the peace be prepared for the repecussions (i.e

the current middle east crisis). However that does not justify the mob's actions

when it is known that universities already have disciplinary procedures in place.

So i personally feel that it's not up to the student council to dispense their own

form of justice as and when they feel like it.

Now if you lot and I were in a hall together and there is hostility towads the

minority view, I'd disengage and proceed with an alternative plan.

I agree here. What was it? 7 against 50? Sometimes you have to know when to walk

away and you'll be the bigger man for it. I would die fighting for my country but i

wouldn't die over some disagreement over the setting up of a counter. Why the hell

would i risk myself getting hurt and injured for something as small as that!? It's

bloody ridiculous!

So my advice to those chinese students is forget about university politics (always

seemed like a waste of time to me), just study hard, get through uni with all the

necessary skills and the world is your oyster.

See,not action(s) taken by UPM as I doubt before. As usual, sweep everything under the carpet.
Just look at this:
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/54242
"...UPM has called these student leaders and advised them to exercise more caution in racial ties. We also asked them to think rationally to ensure the campus remains in harmony,” he said, adding a series of programmes to ‘enhance unity’ among students has been planned....After Nik Mustapha finished reading from his prepared statement, Azali immediately requested for a photo session. “Can we call a few Chinese students to come (for the photo) as background?” said Azali aloud..." What a JOKE of the day!

Shaun,

NO, that world is NOT the oyster if one has to think like you. These people are just passing the butt to somebody else & waiting to taste the end result - a runner!

Sometimes, there are bigger things in life than just paper qualifications. Like you said - fighting for the country. In fact to paraphrase this is almost liken to a small fight for the injustices & abominations tha have been creeping around the nation's neck.

Now if we let this past, then we've most likely let a golden opportunity to review our country's ills past!

Small thing - you inferred!

NO this is one of the many small & initial reactions that have been simmering underneath the fabric of our nation.

Bigger & possible monsterious things are broilling & waiting to happen.

Just imagine how many BIG things actually grow out of SMALL things like this.

History has amble proofs.

I'd like to congratulate UPM on an excellent vocational training excercise. Knowing the need for greater vocational skills in today's job market UPM is now offering selected students to 'try out' for careers in the FRU. Take a peaceful, (If possibly illegal under UPM rules) and use violence to disrupt a peacful expression of feeling. Any of this sound familiar, wasn't it only a month or so back a similar event occured. (Any one fill me in on what happened to those neanderthals outside KLCC, my guess the same as the ones in UPM??)
Sorry guys Alfabob is correct, when you protest against people that are unable to listen, not unwilling, these people are unable to, the education system doesn't teach them to understand, just to follow, then you must expect an 'unfortunate' outcome. Yes its terrible, but that doesn't make it less true. Sometime the only way to get peoples attention is to stand up for what you believe and hope the world has a conscience.....even if the authorities don't. Congratulations to them, grandstanding it may have been, but it took courage and commitment, qualities not too common nowadays

Why is it that some people are seeking to dogmatize some other people's way of doing things to fit their own world view -- is really beyond me.

Although I might be just overexaggerating the whole situation, but I just have an issue with people thinking that the actions of others should be automatically seen as the responsibility of the person who cause it. Whatever happen to personal responsibility?

I also trying to point out that people should be able to stand up for their ideals/opinion regardless of what other people think about it, the cirumstances, and the ordeal they go through.

Too many people just afraid to stir things up to perserve the status quo as if the status quo is any better.

I leave you with a word of wisdom from Winston Churchill "If you will not fight for the right" he once growled, "when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

So now I'm now a victim of namecalling. Enlightened lot some of you are.

Let me make some points clear..

1. I do not argue whether it is right or wrong for them to set up their booth, I merely highlighted that it was not legal. Why is this important? Because an act is considered illegal because it could lead to repurcussions against the good for the public. While you are all out for the student councils head, one should also acknowledge that the SPF instigate, not aggress, the situation. Instsigate and aggravate are 2 different things, and I think some of some of you need to think about that.

2SaNe, you have brought up 'morally right', the problem with 'morally right' is that morality depends on the individual, what may be right for me, may not be for you. Hence we have laws. If you deem that the laws are wrong, than put your effort into changing the law.

2. I never said that the council members were right in their actions, nor did I said that it was legal. I merely said that the situation that the SPF created put them in harms way, and caused them the be heckled. They were impractical, they showed poor lack of judgement in facing the mob, and the situation could have become much more serious than it was. Should the mob be punished, should they not be held responsible for their part, yes, they do, and I believed the punishment metted is too tolerant for the seriousness.

3. WHy bring up the camera? Why not? Most people believe what is said on the net, and the whole clip can do harm to the country, if used inapprorpriately. Is it too much of a stretch that there are parties out there who would use the clip to further their own agenda? Also, its uncommon to have a video camera in a school canteen, its something that you don't expect a student to carry around much, but it was there.. Conspiracy theory? Why not, most of the stories here were or still are, conspiracy theories.

3. Someone here pointed out that what was captured on video need not be the actual situation... to respond to my statement of seing not any women being physical abused. I chose to not comment or speculate on anything outside the video because the video is the only evidence available. By showing the video to us, we are asked to evaluate the situation based on what is shown, then am I wrong to not consider events not shown in the video? I think not. Just as I refrained on commenting who was right and wrong, and only commented on what is legal or not, because legaility has a term of reference, unlike morality.

Lastly 2SaNe, your 'protest and rape' example has a higher degree of seriousness than the situation presented. No ladies were physically harmed in the fracas, no women were raped. The law also recognises degree of severity and thats why you have different categories for offences.

So.. to sum up. Both parties conducted actions that were illegal, and should face their consequences. The punishment metted out for the counil members is not of comparable with the degree of seriousness of their acts.

The SPF is an illegal entity and should legalise themselves. And, I bet this is the case, they should try to tell the student population at the universities ( they seemed like a big organisation - theres chapters in USM as well) what is it that they do, preach etc. I will speculate that they generally are of non Malay membership, and is somewhat closed.

Just wondering, any of you here are the by product of education at an IPTA?

I shall await your rebuttals.

CK,

I think you have misunderstood me, so please allow me to clarify the issue.

I am not naive about the current racial tension plaguing Malaysia which has always been simmering below the surface nor am i naive about the fact that these simmering tensions will one day escalate and erupt.

And i'm not saying we shouldn't do anything about this. In fact, i'm all for bringing those hooligans to justice and addressing the issue properly.

When i mentioned the ruckus at UPM as a 'small thing' i meant it in the situational context (i.e. the unruly disruption of the counter) compared to other situations where risking you life is worth it because i feel that those Chinese students had nothing to gain if they wanted to force the issue which might have gotten them injured or killed by those out of control hooligans. But thank God they decided to walk away.

IMHO, I think those who see this UPM issue as a racial thing (Chinese v Malays) are reading too much into it. Like i stated before i'm subtracting the race element and looking at this as a bunch of hooligans heckling a bunch of innocent students. You can say i'm deluding myself but that's okay. To each his own, i'll agree to disagree.

Alfabob,

1. & 2. Yes SPF may have instigated (i doubt intenionally) the whole thing but as i said before, i feel that the responsibility of the whole issue rests on the shoulders of the student council. If they had in a civil manner, pointed out the relevant legistlation where the setting up of a booth regardless of purpose by an unregistered student body is illegal. this whole thing could have been avoided.

Like for example you're enjoying a smoke, then someone comes up to you telling you it's illegal to smoke where you are standing. Would you have taken the person's word or have him show you a no smoking sign as proof?

3. Conspiracy theories? Mate i personally think you maybe reading into this too much but i'm not ruling out the conspiracy factor entirely (it's just a bit farfetched IMO). I don't see that having a video camera in a canteen is uncommon with mobile phone cameras in the megapixels now, it's very hard to distinguish whether the video or pictures were either from a digital still camera, video camera or a mobile phone. The video clip may have been taken for evidence against the mob if the situation had escalated into physical violence and not necessarily for the purpose of harming the country.

In actual fact i think it would do more harm than good to not have shown the clip.

The manner in which the incident whereby a MALE mob was seen intimidating an illegal help-desk (mANNED BY SEVERAL WOMEN)is so typical malay. The only malay hero I can recall that fought against foreign aggression happens to be a man hiding in a shit hole who, when Birch was about to relieve himself (or maybe after) impaled the briton to a painful death.

alfrabob,

1. I do not argue whether it is right or wrong for them to set up their booth, I merely highlighted that it was not legal.

I agree that it could be illegal. 'Could be illegal' because its only highly speculative at this point. It's in court that we judge if someone have broken the law. I have yet to hear the court case and a judge passing its judgement. In this situation however, it would be more appropriate if it was refer to any relevant bodies in the university.

Why is this important? Because an act is considered illegal because it could lead to repurcussions against the good for the public.

And I only pointed out that not all laws are good for the public and maybe against the spirit of our constituition. This of course should be tested in a court of law and, the reason why I said I would digress if I should elloborate on it.

While you are all out for the student councils head, one should also acknowledge that the SPF instigate, not aggress, the situation. Instsigate and aggravate are 2 different things, and I think some of some of you need to think about that.

I don't acknowledge that SPF instigate the situation. That was your opinion. I merely pointing out that they have the right to refuse to leave. Of course, that doesn't mean they should use it as an excuse to avoid the consequences of their actions.

2SaNe, you have brought up 'morally right', the problem with 'morally right' is that morality depends on the individual, what may be right for me, may not be for you. Hence we have laws.

I brought it up because SPF's action could be deem morally right to some people. And it was opinion that I agree with that notion. I also agree there is a difference of morality between people.

And I pointed out that you got around it the wrong way. Laws are created based on the agreement of morality by the people not the other way around.

If you deem that the laws are wrong, than put your effort into changing the law.

Yes, I deem some laws are wrong and there exist a fallacy of the argument supporting it and that is why I'm highlighting it. This is the right course of action, no?

2. I never said that the council members were right in their actions, nor did I said that it was legal.

I never said that you said it outright. I said you were implying it. If you didn't then I've misunderstood your statement.

I merely said that the situation that the SPF created put them in harms way, and caused them the be heckled. They were impractical, they showed poor lack of judgement in facing the mob, and the situation could have become much more serious than it was. Should the mob be punished, should they not be held responsible for their part, yes, they do, and I believed the punishment metted is too tolerant for the seriousness.

I disagree it was impratical. It was my opinion that praticality is irrelevant when you are trying to stand up for you right. I disagree that its a lack of judgement just because you are put in harms way. Sometimes in life, you have to risk a lot to just protect the rights that you have. That's why I quoted Winston Churchill.

3. WHy bring up the camera? Why not? Most people believe what is said on the net, and the whole clip can do harm to the country, if used inapprorpriately.

Thank you for belittling your fellow countrymen but that is your opinion and you have the right to it. Although, I fail to see the logic that the whole clip could harm the country. It is beyond me.

Is it too much of a stretch that there are parties out there who would use the clip to further their own agenda?

Yes or it could be only FUD.

Also, its uncommon to have a video camera in a school canteen, its something that you don't expect a student to carry around much, but it was there..

Purely speculative with no substantional evidence to back it up. At my university, its common for people to carry around video cameras even in lecture halls. And if you have read the article, a merdekareview journalist was covering the activities by SPF when it happen.

Conspiracy theory? Why not, most of the stories here were or still are, conspiracy theories.

And here you are trying to muddle it more by introducing more speculative theories. Your extraordinary logic for your justification really baffles me.

3. Someone here pointed out that what was captured on video need not be the actual situation... to respond to my statement of seing not any women being physical abused. I chose to not comment or speculate on anything outside the video because the video is the only evidence available. By showing the video to us, we are asked to evaluate the situation based on what is shown, then am I wrong to not consider events not shown in the video? I think not. Just as I refrained on commenting who was right and wrong, and only commented on what is legal or not, because legaility has a term of reference, unlike morality.

And you have yet you fail in all your comment to point at which law that you deem SPF have broken.

Lastly 2SaNe, your 'protest and rape' example has a higher degree of seriousness than the situation presented.

It is an example I gave to highlight the fallacy that the victim of an act of violence should be held responsible.

No ladies were physically harmed in the fracas, no women were raped.

Its misleading to say that the ladies were not physically harmed. If you have read the malaysiakini article provided by kenji (my thanks to him), it was alleged that they physically assaulted a female representative of SPF.

The law also recognises degree of severity and thats why you have different categories for offences.

The degree of severity was never in question.

So.. to sum up. Both parties conducted actions that were illegal, and should face their consequences. The punishment metted out for the counil members is not of comparable with the degree of seriousness of their acts.

Highly speculative at this point.

The SPF is an illegal entity and should legalise themselves. And, I bet this is the case, they should try to tell the student population at the universities ( they seemed like a big organisation - theres chapters in USM as well) what is it that they do, preach etc.

Highly speculative that they are not trying or have not tried. Its still highly speculative that if their actions were against the policy of the university.

I will speculate that they generally are of non Malay membership, and is somewhat closed.

I find that statement without any relevancy.

From The Star: UPM to deal with fracas
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/7/22/nation/14917270&sec=nation

"Prof Nik Mustapha said UPM would make improvements to programmes that place importance on harmony between undergraduates. These include more sports activities, cultural performances and festivals."

- yet again another brilliant idea (a bit old?) to smooth things 'on the surface'...maybe an open civilised mature intellectual dialogue would help more.

From The Star: Stay cool, students at UPM advised
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/7/22/nation/14919076&sec=nation

"Prof Radin said the students could have discussed the problem with mutual respect.

“I was made to understand that a number of boys involved had just finished a rugby game and were probably pumped up because of this,” he said."

- are we really serious?

You are full of contradiction. I think you should set yourself straight before you even attempt to contemplate the situation.

One moment it’s the legality of SPF, then its their Practicality, later its their instigation, then its their camera phone. You choose between legality (only on SPF not the student council) and practicality (again only on SPF not the gangster under guise of student council) conveniently. Too convenient in fact.

You talk about instigation by SPF. Are you at the scene? How do you draw your conclusion? I see it’s more of instigation by the gangster to pick a fight. Someone even try to calm these beast down, did it work?

Your brilliant sentence:
(Lastly 2SaNe, your 'protest and rape' example has a higher degree of seriousness than the situation presented. No ladies were physically harmed in the fracas, no women were raped. The law also recognises degree of severity and thats why you have different categories for offences.)

Now you are talking about degree of severity, of different categories for punishment. My question to you: which is higher severity? Setting up a peaceful counter or causing bodily harm/raging mobs? Again with your two-faced opinion, choose to attack SPF only and spare the gangster.

About the wearing of headscarf, the “protest and rape” scenario, under the illustration, you can replace the word “rape” with, “causing bodily harm”, “shoving your daughter”, “push her to the ground”, “threaten to rape”, “fall on the floor”, it’s the same situation to this fracas.

Still my question remains, does your daughter “deserve” it? Would you condemn your daughter (as per SPF)? Or Would you support the Majority of the orang putih (gangster/student union)? Your attack so far I can see is only on your daughter (lone voice), and not the orang putih (majority). Though you are now quiet on the minority sucking up to the majority nonsense.

As I mention, you are full of contradiction, even with your own opinion. Try clean up your house before comment.

Disadvantaged at numbers and legality, who in their right mind would instigate the legalised monsters?

This is clearly a case of bullying. Bullying of the weak, bullying of the helpless, and bullying of woman. And alfabob try to institute some just cause into the bullying.

well said, megahyper.

Hi Guys, (Shaun especially)

This thread written by A Cygnet Shin in Dr Bakri's blog correctly sum up this incident in UPM;

# A Cygnet Shin Says:
July 23rd, 2006 at 6:45 am

I believe this is an opportunity to publish some of my preliminary thought about the issues.

First and foremost, patience is virtue. Unfortunately, neither the media nor its audience seems to have any time for fact-checking. The same can be said of the MOE in its haste to introduce Ethnic Relations, considering the first decision was formalised somewhere in October 2004.

The Hansard for 18 July 2006 is not out yet, but the session which started it all is available (see Hansard, 17 July 2006, pg. 5-8). Note that there were two issues raised by the MP from Rantau Panjang and MP from Ipoh Timor, namely 1) Campus politics and student activism and 2) Quality of tertiary curriculum, in particular on Ethnic Relations.

Dato’ Mustapa pointed out that a review of the AUKU and the amendments of repressive clauses are underway for the former, and pleaded with the MP of Ipoh Timor that interpretation of historical facts is allowed, but the government will look into claims of distortion of facts and correct them if necessary.

We do not know clearly what happened the next day, but politicians from all sides took an opportunity to lambast the Minister of Higher Education over the publication, pressuring him, among other things, to take action on the academicians, the institution, and the removal of the offending publication. The media and the public soon joined in and instant experts began lending their weight on the matter, prompting a withdrawal of the module on Wednesday, 19 July 2006, announced by the PM himself after a cabinet decision, considering how the Minister of Higher Education has resisted pressure to do so in the time being.

All it took was three days, ladies and gentlemen.

It speak volumes not only of academic integrity in this country, but how emasculated academic freedom in this country has become.

When Prof. Mearsheimer and Prof. Walt published a paper entitled “The Israel Lobby and U. S. Foreign Policy”, the pressure and smearing was not only intense, but the heat almost took both of them out of commission in the academia. Intimidation, of course, is part of the academic risk for trying to present alternative points of view.

Certainly, the writings in the publication edited by Prof. Jayum and Dr. Zaid would have lacked academic rigor and consistency, and most likely, taking the easy way out by toeing political positions rather than critical history. I have not quite read the already withdrawn publication, but I hope to do so soon because too much accusations have been levelled by those who have not even seen the publication.

The precise problem with our current academia is the huge headache brought about by politics. The intelligensia have learned to censor or moderate themselves because one false step on the wrong toe would mean the axe, quite literally. So caution is the key that locks away academic freedom and scholarship. If we look at the highlighted incidents, all took to the safest arguments to minimize dispute. Sure, the Opposition is unhappy, Suqiu is unhappy, and the Indian community is unhappy. But look at it this way, in a climate where it is easy to offend (and if you absolutely have to blame someone or something), pick one that you can live with. Would ANYONE actually expect our academicians to blame UMNO in a publication for university students, optional reading material or not?

The real evil is probably the lack of academic rigor to provide a comprehensive analysis. One could argue that the publication was meant as an introductory guide, but it also points out how sorely lacking we are in authoritative texts on the subject matter due to the reluctance of proper analysis and dissemination. They are, afterall, fairly recent events on the scale of human history. Memories are still fresh and raw, with the anger and prejudice still intact from past propaganda. Until we can achieve some kind of objectivity or detachment on the matter, we will keep going in circles trying to exenorate ourselves from the blame.

Already, the incident has spiralled into historical revisionism and determinism where political parties are now joining in the game of finding out the real causes for the 13th May incident in 1969. I am rather touched by the concern shown by our politicians on the factual accuracy of historical events. The subject has been much neglected and watered down, guided by expediency rather than the truth. However, truth is a mother. A real tricky snake that one is.

Of course, IF the issue lies with the credibility of some local historians, then let the academia resolve such differences through the proper platforms. Established interpretations of past events were not achieved at mamak stalls and coffee shops, but in works of scholarship. There are many past incidents in Malaysia that offers invaluable lessons in the study of ethnic relations.

If factual errors are made, then corrections must be made. However, interpretations of historical events (including its significance) is subjected to open debate. All the brouhaha over the subject matter will end up as hot air as many of the audience will remain spectators without making the effort to learn the facts. History is not to be used in judging who was right and who was wrong, although historians enjoy pronouncing their own conclusions after a systematic study of evidence, information and records. We must respect, defend and protect this space for academicians to present their thoughts and findings, as well as enable proper channels of feedback to stimulate further discussions of the matter.

The motive behind the questioning in the public mind, however, is a matter of apportioning blame. This reflects the mentality of Malaysians where somebody (or something) is at fault for bad things that have happened. Whether it is an argument to show that Party A or Race B is not to be blamed for so and so, or claims that Mr. X and Ms. Y did or did not do this or that, the whole exercise becomes politically, racially or religiously charged. Many Malaysians are hell bent on proving that they are not sufficiently mature to handle such discussions.

Ironically, the incidents do not mark a black spot on any of the political parties, ethnic communities, lobbying groups or the poor - it is a black spot ON ALL OF US, every single Malaysian. There is just no way we can just blame a party and be self righteous about it. Never.

That is the lesson. We should be ashamed that we have failed each other, in particular the victims, to reign in our own monsters. All the blaming is only showing how far away still we are from assuming responsibility towards the fracture and hurt that exist between the communities in Malaysia.

Many have conveniently forgotten that there was a call to roll back politics in education. Now, the Ministry of Higher Education is entasked to prepare a standard text for the subject on Ethnic Relations. Neutrality is good for handling controversies, and probably this is an opportunity for the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Higher Education to relook how they have done things in the slipshod past and correct their own flaws in sacrificing the truth over conformity to political propaganda. Academicians should learn that toeing the official versions and explanations for historical events is lazy and uncritical work which needs little further airplay. The question that remains is how well will the academia liberate themselves and take on the truth, without fear or favour?

At the end of the day, will the public learn to understand communal differences, their insecurities and fears, or they will talk past each other by focusing on blame and fault-finding, blind generalizations and self-serving agendas?

A look at the UPM incident involving the disgraceful fracas between the group of students and the initial public reaction becomes crystal.

The trigger to that incident was clearly related to campus politics and student activism. Did we detect a racial undertone? Considering how politics in the larger society is played out, I am not surprised by the simplified and sensationalist charge that the incident reflects ethnic tension.

Please-lah, the first and last thing Malaysians are capable of thinking when a Malay and a Chinese is arguing is the race of the speakers, nothing else. They could be arguing about free trade or globalisation for that matter, and it will still be tinted with race politics. That’s how it is with this country. Nevermind that the real issue behind the brawl was the highhanded treatment of student opposition in the campus, but many in the public simply decided to take the racial divide route in framing their arguments.

Granted, race is a huge factor in many aspects of our lives, including for many undergraduates in the universities. There are many unofficial self-help groups that were formed along racial lines that were organized by the students. This is further complicated by the university’s administration lack of awareness of its own biasness, whether its is political, ethnic or religious slant. When a majority of its staff is of a single ethnic or religious denomination, and by default an extension of the ruling coalition, it is common to see how endorsements for student activities are limited by the virtue of short-sighted administrative staff. Poor judgements and lapse in thinking, in particular assuming that the campus audience are all of one denomination, resulted in further alienation of the minorities - hardly a celebration of diversity and multiculturalism.

However, the diseases that plagued the institutions of higher learning are not cured by simply rewriting a text on ethnic relations and punishing the students for unruly behaviour. That’s merely a treatment of the symptoms while ignoring the larger issues. It is fine and dandy that the cabinet decided in record time to pass judgement on the scholarship of a claimed academic work. Are we to expect that to happen all the time? Dato’ Mustapa will win huge support from the academia for recognizing that it is time to make the institutions reponsible for their own flaws and shortcomings. It is only correct for UPM to handle its own internal affairs. Unfortunately, the Ministry of Higher Education has a larger task to perform, and that is to halt the decline of our tertiary institutions. Reviewing the AUKU is a step in the right direction, but it goes much further than that. Freeing up the academic space is the beginning, but the next item on the agenda should be the beefing up of academic parity - to allow the institutions to compete for the best and brightest, to allow the academicians to contest opposing and differing points of view, to enable criticism and critical thinking the space to grow, to allow reason to govern rather than blind adherence to the politics of patronage.

Of course, this is also conditional upon the academia to prove that they are able to meet such standards, whether it is scholastic ability, quality or integrity. Until then, complaints of interference is only going to highlight their own dependency and shortcomings.

The group of UPM students have not only disgraced themselves and the university, but also their families, parents and the students they are supposed to represent. Is this any different than the mobs who tried to abort attempts at dialogues by the Article 11 group?

Perhaps our youth is only taking a page from the wrong adults.#

It also sums up nicely the BIGGER ills of our NATION - everything through the eyes of RACE, Malay vs THE REST of the other Malaysians.

Dear 2SaNe and Hyper,

From the get go my arguments are based on the video evidence, not taking into account the articles from Malaysiakini nor Merdekareview because they are 3rd party accounts. From the video, I've pointed out that the SPF were instigating the situation, whether intentionally or not, and that they could have prevented the situation from worsening. Initially, I used legality as a point because I thought it was all about a protest, not what it turned out to be.

Yet, it is also a fact that the SPF is a non-registered body, who do not have the right to organise such activities on campus. Someone from UPM here who could look this up?

I never said whether it was right or wrong for people to protest, or do what they did, just.. illegal.

Somewhere at the beginnning of the video, they were asked to leave, nicely, they chose not to. So there was a reaction to that.

This is important because up to that point, the situation was still controllable, the moment they became obstinate, it escalated. I used the term impractical because clearly, they were preaching to people who were hostile to them, and they were outnumbered, and with no hope of controlling the situation if it escalated into a brawl. Similar to what Shaun put up. You can admire them for all their courage and what not, but theres 2 different things between being courageous and foolish. So, they made it to here and the newspapers, some of us discuss this, but what changes can you really expect? Will the ruling powers review the law because of this? Will the people allow them to? Will the Malays allow them to?

2ndly, I again would like to point out both heckling and raping are 2 very different outcomes. No bodily harm was shown to any of the participants in the video, no one was raped. They were heckled, there was a lot of shouting, screaming and intimidation.

You asked me whether if my daughter was involved in this fracas who would I go to town with. I'll hold the university responsible, but I'll also give her and the SPF a good talking to. They choose to operate outside the confines of the system, they choose alienate themselves, and they chose a fight with no hope of winning, and now that they've been roughen up, they are whining. Again its not the right or wrong that would upset me, its the lack of smarts,the lack of judgement.

I asked again whether any of you are from a local uni.

Folks, whether it is right or wrong, as I said before, a minority in any grouping needs to get the buy in from the majority to accomplish any tasks. No minority special interests were ever allowed without the consent of the majority. So, engage them, open up, talk to them, understand their nuances and they'll be more open. We've seen it before, in the 60s and the 70s, even the 80s, but over the past 20 years or so, we've not done enough enggagement between the races. The SPF chose to engage in the wrong way, thats all.

BTW, Sydput, do some more research, you'll pick up a lot more personalities who did not sit in a shit hole trying to defend the country.

From the get go my arguments are based on the video evidence, not taking into account the articles from Malaysiakini nor Merdekareview because they are 3rd party accounts.

Malaysiakini's article reports what the representative of SPF alleged happen and mentions where the video came from which is a trainee journalist for MerdekaReview covering the event. I failed to see it being a 3rd party account. You only excluded it for covenience.

From the video, I've pointed out that the SPF were instigating the situation, whether intentionally or not, and that they could have prevented the situation from worsening.

What you said is an oxymoron. How can someone instigate something unintentionally? I assume this is the lack of understanding the defintion of the word instigating on your part.

Putting that aside, even if you believe SPF instigate the situation, this is based on the preassumption that SPF has a hidden motivation. Highly speculative isn't it even if you judge solely on the video evidence?

Initially, I used legality as a point because I thought it was all about a protest, not what it turned out to be.

Which made the whole of your argument irrelevant. Why pursue the course of debate on something that isn't true?

Yet, it is also a fact that the SPF is a non-registered body, who do not have the right to organise such activities on campus. Someone from UPM here who could look this up?

Can I laugh at you now? First you said its a fact and then you back it up by asking others to look it up for you? Isn't this just your speculation?

I never said whether it was right or wrong for people to protest, or do what they did, just.. illegal.

Yes. I said it and I brought it up. Never said you did. And I also pointed it out that the illegality of their action is only based on your speculation.

Somewhere at the beginnning of the video, they were asked to leave, nicely, they chose not to. So there was a reaction to that.

Agreed. The reaction seems to intimidation on the student council's part.

This is important because up to that point, the situation was still controllable, the moment they became obstinate, it escalated. I used the term impractical because clearly, they were preaching to people who were hostile to them, and they were outnumbered, and with no hope of controlling the situation if it escalated into a brawl.

I fail to see in the video where SPF preaching to the student council about their beliefs. I assume this is because of the lack of understanding of the definition of the word preaching. What SPF only did was to refuse to follow what the student council ask them to do and asking the student council not to intimidate them.

I find no relevance of praticality involve unless SPF expected the student council to engage them and again to expect the student council would react violently. It may however be not suprising to you but it maybe suprising to SPF. A lot of speculation on your part isn't it?

Similar to what Shaun put up. You can admire them for all their courage and what not, but theres 2 different things between being courageous and foolish.

Your entitle to your opinion. I on the other hand don't think its foolish at all.

So, they made it to here and the newspapers, some of us discuss this, but what changes can you really expect?

To answer that I'll quote someone who once said in a post in another forum:

We have to recognize wrong and raise bloody hell about it, if only via a few posts on a lame blog or in a conversation over the water cooler at work. I'm not an activist, but when I speak up, here or in real life, it may give confidence to someone else who has been quietly thinking "you know, this doesn't look right." If I'm silent, that one quiet little voice caves into the raucous majority and eventually they don't have any doubts that it's okay for them to do so. A voice of dissent, one who brings up the ideals we all ostensibly believe in, is more important than you think. If I followed your lead, I'd wait until no voice was possible. What do you want me to do, wait until I'm being herded into a black van with a hood over my face to cry out "golly, this is wrong?"

Will the ruling powers review the law because of this? Will the people allow them to?

Are you asking us to give up? Refer to above about why I do this.

Will the Malays allow them to?

Introducing racial undertones and stereotyping the Malays doesn't really help your argument. It only however potrays you as someone who would appeal to fear rather then logic to further your argument and as a goddamn racist.

2ndly, I again would like to point out both heckling and raping are 2 very different outcomes. No bodily harm was shown to any of the participants in the video, no one was raped. They were heckled, there was a lot of shouting, screaming and intimidation.

Noone said anyone was raped in the video and you may have brought this up to answer hyper. However I like to point out, if you read what I said, I brought it up as an ANALOGY/EXAMPLE to point out the fallacy in your argument that the victim should be held responsible for an act of aggression by others.

You asked me whether if my daughter was involved in this fracas who would I go to town with. I'll hold the university responsible, but I'll also give her and the SPF a good talking to. They choose to operate outside the confines of the system, they choose alienate themselves, and they chose a fight with no hope of winning, and now that they've been roughen up, they are whining.

Highly speculative in your part on what SPF have done , their motivation and the boundaries of the 'system'. Maybe its your opinion that they've gain nothing, but I disagree. This case highlighted a lot of things to many people. One of them is UPM's policy.

Again its not the right or wrong that would upset me, its the lack of smarts,the lack of judgement.

Your entitle to your opinion. I on the other hand would be more upset with people who would abuse their position then the lack of judgement of the victim.

I asked again whether any of you are from a local uni.

Which is so irrelevant to discussion at hand. Do I need to be in a local uni to understand the fallacy in your argument?

Folks, whether it is right or wrong, as I said before, a minority in any grouping needs to get the buy in from the majority to accomplish any tasks.

Please clarify the definition of BUY IN. This is the second time I've asked that.

No minority special interests were ever allowed without the consent of the majority.

May I ask what 'special interest'? It's rather broad isn't it? It could really mean anything. Beside, what you said is totally misleading.

I assume you think that rights were given to us by the majority or based on the law of the land. That is why I repeatedly said you got things around the wrong way.

We are born with every right to do anything we want. However there is a need to recognize the rights of others, because we understand the concequences if we don't. Lots of killing and such. So we created laws and draw the line so we wouldn't take away the rights of others or infringe them depending on the situation.

So in this case, its misleading to say the minority need the consent of the majority. Its just that the minority recognize the rights of the majority and there is a need to discuss where we should draw the line. Because if the minority ignore the rights of the majority, it would mean a bad confrontation.

If you think the majority can ignore the rights of the minority, then you are solely mistaken. Ignoring them would mean dissent. Beside minorities and majority are not definite. You could be a minority today and the majority tomorrow.

So, engage them, open up, talk to them, understand their nuances and they'll be more open. We've seen it before, in the 60s and the 70s, even the 80s, but over the past 20 years or so, we've not done enough enggagement between the races.

Where is the statistic result to back that up? I find this a mere speculation again.

The SPF chose to engage in the wrong way, thats all.

From the video, SPF didn't engage the student council. It was the student council who engaged SPF.

BTW, Sydput, do some more research, you'll pick up a lot more personalities who did not sit in a shit hole trying to defend the country.

I leave that to sydput

2SaNe,

Just as everyone is born with certain rights, and that we draw laws to protect those rights, you should also remember that the laws are drawn up with the consent of the people. Hence, a buy in is needed from the majority, as every law passed is based on the majoritys consent.

You can argue all you want on what is right or wrong, or what you believe your rights are, and you may call me ludicrous, etc, yet you were never part of the local education system. You've never seen how close minorities are in a local university, you have no real understanding of the problems on the ground. Do you know that the student council actions did not struck a cord with other Malays?

I only asked someone to refer to the UPM regulations because its readily available to them, as it was to other students of yesteryears.Its there, just bother looking it up.

Its nice to be able to speculate and pass judgment when you're not immersed in the situation.

alfabob,

Just as everyone is born with certain rights, and that we draw laws to protect those rights, you should also remember that the laws are drawn up with the consent of the people.

I disagree. Laws are drawn up with a consensus between the people and the state. I maybe nickpicking but what you said is misleading.

Hence, a buy in is needed from the majority, as every law passed is based on the majoritys consent.

You have yet to explain the meaning of 'buy in' to me. Consent? Read above. Its consensus.

You can argue all you want on what is right or wrong, or what you believe your rights are, and you may call me ludicrous, etc, yet you were never part of the local education system.

Thanks for speculating in your part. How do you know I'm not a part of the local education system?

You've never seen how close minorities are in a local university, you have no real understanding of the problems on the ground.

I find that irrelevant into the question I posed and the point I'm making. I don't need to understand the 'problems on the ground', whatever that means, to point out the fallacy in your argument. You can try the straw man attack all you want but your argument lack any depth and its only mere speculations on your part.

Do you know that the student council actions did not struck a cord with other Malays?

That is speculation on your part unless of course you interview every Malay in Malaysia. Even if you did, you still have to produce evidence for your claim. If not, I would just assume your speculating. It is really easy to claim anything without backing it up right?

I only asked someone to refer to the UPM regulations because its readily available to them, as it was to other students of yesteryears.Its there, just bother looking it up.

And ignore my request for you to back up your statement. Convenient isn't it?

Its nice to be able to speculate and pass judgment when you're not immersed in the situation.

I did not pass any judgement on anyone in any of my comments. My first comment was to rant at people who would use the argument that the victim should be held responsible for the agression acted upon them. The subsequence comments was to rebute what you reply to me.

You are the one who have been speculating.
You are the one who repeatedly ignore my request to back up your statements.
And you are the one whose been using straw man attacks.
Thank you for participating though and I don't doubt that I've wasted my time.

Alfabob,

Brilliant, you did choose your only way out nicely. And your obvious change of tone towards the end suits me just fine. Since your comment started, I have the feeling that you are one of those fanatical racist bully, which attack only the weak, the minority and the helpless. Really hope that my feeling is wrong.

But you still can’t deny 2 facts:

That you ONLY choose to attack SPF and leave the student council, the obvious gangster/bully out. As you can see so far in our comments, only SPF is highlighted, only SPF is questioned, only SPF is toss to scrutiny, you glaringly omitted the student council, as if they are wronged in the first place, as if they are the victim. Why don’t you put them under magnifier? Under the “protect and rape” scenario that I illustrated, undeniably you would held the UNI (UPM) accountable and I can imagine you would not be as forgiving towards the Orang Putih (Student council), not to mention attacking “your daughter” in a blog. Do unto others what others would unto you!

And That in every article, you try to inject some MALAY vs CHINESE element. Sorry, I am but colour blind. I only see bully and bullied. Though you try to cover your racist tendency towards the end, it only turns out more glaringly. You start your vicious attack (totally unfounded presumption) of SPF instigation, motive, of their exclusive membership (so UMNO, the all encompassing body in Malaysia is not?), of their damage to the country, and slowly retract them 1 by 1. Even SPF’s member is a daughter, a son, a brother, a sister to someone. Everyone is a human being. They don’t choose to be a minority, a majority, a Chinese, an Indian, or a Malay. They are born into it. So have a heart, they are already bullied by the system, the legal framework, the student council and even the guard. Even after all this, you still try to bully them.

So please, next time, look at the picture more wholesome, more inclusive. Attack and give credit where its due. Try educate any other racist wannabe. It would do Malaysia good if we have less racist and more of a reasonable person.

Okay, if anyone still hell-bend in thinking that the SPF is partly blame in the aggression shown by the student council. You can enlighten me on how you arrive to that conclusion by saying how many percent each blame is given to each party based on their action, nationality, race, religion, sex or whatever criteria you think should apply. Make a list.

If SPF are a mainly Malays would that be 6%? If the student council are Chinese, would that be 5%? What about if they are Chindians? Or if they are Bajaus? Mainly guys? Mainly girls? Cross dressers? Gothic? Into heavy metal? Into classic? Idolise Elvis? If they are disable? Had a sex change? If the student council hug instead of chanting? Singing a song? How much percentage of blame should SPF get if they hug the student council? Give them a kiss? Walk away the second the student council say the word 'By-laws'? What if they are British? Australians? Tawainese? Americans? Singaporeans? What if they have an IQ of 300? What if they are from the state of Johor? Sabah? Sarawak? What if they are the sons of minister? What if they have an asset of 600k in the bank? What if they have 1 people then the student council? 5 people more then the student council? Less then 3? What if the place was outside UPM? In the lecture hall? In the hallway? In the hostel? What if it was UiTM? USM? Make a good list and then let us review it. I'm sure I can finally understand your logic.