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“When the world will be as one” - Truly, that day keeps getting further and further away. We seem to be regressing instead of taking small steps towards that.

Even if someone comes back from ‘heaven’ to tell us what it really is like, the quarreling will intensify, I’m sure.

Only when the 'man' decides to leave his 'comfort zone' awhile and use his logic thinking, at the very least, common sense, does the action resulted in good happening after their antics. Does the one they upheld, gives them the choice to make their own decision? After all, it is but one life at this moment and many more to come. Don't waste it on others antics but save your ownself.

At the Heart of All Religions you will find the Same Truth
That's why many of us cannot understand that one religion is no different than the next. It’s because of the mind. Perhaps, we are not that enlightened enough to go beyond the mind. Then we see differently, and truly understand that there’s no difference, ever. It's such a simple thing we shake our heads and can’t believe that we couldn’t understand it before.

It's OK if each of us can pursue what he or she wants to study and believe, whether false or true. But the problem comes when we start to ARGUE and FIGHT among each other because of philosophical differences. Then we truly disgrace ourselves and our ascended Teachers because They always preached peace, integrity and love.

Thus, it doesn't matter now whether we believe that Christianity is the greatest religion or that Buddhism is the highest belief system in the world; or for that matter Islam is the only way; we don’t need to argue. Instead we should seek to know our true religion, the true religious essence, which Buddha left behind, which the Teacher of the Tao left behind, which Christ left behind. And then we’ll know that the only, the best and the quickest way are seeking enlightenment to understand what religious tolerance is all about.

Why does it look like those whom are "seemingly religious" here and everywhere else are so keen to use violence and rhetoric to "protect God's name"?
It would seem that their religion could be so fragile as to topple if and when threaten by just a fictional novel or a mere discussion group!

Whatever happened to "faith"??

"At the Heart of All Religions you will find the Same Truth"

Sad thing is, ask anyone from any religion what are the essentials of their religion and the answers will be as many and varied as there is sand on a beach. Anyone. Any religion.

Got this last week:

OUR CONSCIENCE ARE ONE.
ONLY RELIGIONS AND POLITICS SEPARATE US ALL.

Keep on imagining and dreaming. There can never be heaven on earth if man plays God. "I can have nuclear weapons and you can't." This is the kind of "God" that rule our world.
John Lennon, you've escape earth's hell.

Its a test from 'God' and in so many many incidences since the dawn of man ,Man have failed this test and thats what the true religions have preached without due success !
Man have just got to keep their 'faith' and the zealots need to lose their 'insecurity'.

"
OUR CONSCIENCE ARE ONE.
ONLY RELIGIONS AND POLITICS SEPARATE US ALL.
"

While I do agree that politics separated us all, but I strongly disagree on the religion part.

It is we, human being, that use religion as an excuse. All religion teach us to be kind and love to each other.

as long as we have people with the attitude "my religion is superior to yours" or "you are not of my religion, you should not dicuss/talk about my religion", there will never be, the world will never be one.... er... don't go too far, let's just say malaysia of different religions will never be one.

i find it very strange that only now the police said the protest in penang forum (of which i was present) was unlawful and now they are going to charge the leaders. we all (those present in the forum) already knew it was unlawful and it should be broken up there and then but instead the forum was 'advised' (sic!) to stop.

apa macam in polis kerja??

Jacknjill wrote:

"Why does it look like those whom are "seemingly religious" here and everywhere else are so keen to use violence and rhetoric to "protect God's name"?
It would seem that their religion could be so fragile as to topple if and when threaten by just a fictional novel or a mere discussion group!

Whatever happened to "faith"??"

Assuming you were referring to Islam, I would say Islam itself would not topple. And neither were the Muslims afraid it would.

The reactions of the Muslims were such because their religion was insulted. They were merely protecting their religion. Are they afraid Islam will crumble? Never!

It's like someone insults your parents. Whether you keep quiet or retaliate is not the question. Whether your parents will die because of the insults? Of course they won't. But if the dignity of your parents are being attacked, tell me how silent you can remain, and for how long.

"At the Heart of All Religions you will find the Same Truth"

Ha! Ha!

You my friend are certainly no theologian. But I appreciate the fact that you mean well.

Religious bigotry is almost always the result of perceived inferiority.

Chew on that grasshoppers.

pemerhati_msia,

You said,

Assuming you were referring to Islam, I would say Islam itself would not topple. And neither were the Muslims afraid it would.

The reactions of the Muslims were such because their religion was insulted. They were merely protecting their religion. Are they afraid Islam will crumble? Never!

Well, speaking in context to incident of the forum being swamped by the anti-interfaith-commision demonstrators, why then should they come and harrass at the forum at all if Islam will never crumble? What do they fear then?

It's like someone insults your parents. Whether you keep quiet or retaliate is not the question. Whether your parents will die because of the insults? Of course they won't. But if the dignity of your parents are being attacked, tell me how silent you can remain, and for how long.

Ctrl-Alt-Del,

They were there to protest against what the Interfaith Commisssion demands from the government. They were there to protect their rights as Muslims, to be tried as Muslims, and since this is a land primarily made up of Muslims, that the Syariah Law be given its rightful place.

It would only take a Muslim to understand (and I didn't say agree with) their actions. Again, they were protecting their rights, their faith and religion. Did they do that because Islam will crumble? Please tell me how Islam can crumble... Ha ha ha... Cheers!

pemerhati_msia,

You said,

[quote] Assuming you were referring to Islam, I would say Islam itself would not topple. And neither were the Muslims afraid it would.

The reactions of the Muslims were such because their religion was insulted. They were merely protecting their religion. Are they afraid Islam will crumble? Never! [unquote]

Well, speaking in context to incident of the forum being swamped by the anti-interfaith-commision demonstrators, why then should they come and harrass at the forum at all if Islam will never crumble? What do they fear then?

[quote]It's like someone insults your parents. Whether you keep quiet or retaliate is not the question. Whether your parents will die because of the insults? Of course they won't. But if the dignity of your parents are being attacked, tell me how silent you can remain, and for how long.[unquote]

I remember someone telling me a story about the Buddha. Apparently, someone came to the Buddha and abused him verbally. The Buddha just remained calm and silent. After the abuser left, one of his disciples came to Him and asked why He did not stop the abuser. The Buddha asked his disciple that if someone came and gave him some sweets and if he declined, who the sweets will go back to. The disciple promptly replied that it would go back to the person who gave it. The Buddha then said that in the same way, when the abuser came and abused Him, He did not take the abuse. So the abuse just went back to the abuser.

Someone (sorry I can't remember who) once said, "He who has conquered a 1000 men, he is great. But he who has conquered himself, is a thousand-fold greater"...or something to that effect. That's why people like Jesus Christ, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), Buddha, Mahatma Gandhi and many others will remembered till the end of times... for they have conquered their enemies within themselves i.e. greed, anger, hatred, jealousy, lust.

Pemerhati msia,

That's how you see an insult. Some take it as a criticism (contructive or otherwise, it doesn't really matter) and improve, while SOME will go and do some hurting.

I thought religion try to liberate us from the word "dignity"... silly me.

P/s: It's really hard to find comedy in your world until they think it's interesting to make a movie out of it.

Ctrl-Alt-Del,

Without the sligthest urge to continue this into fight, I merely state what sparked the emo of the protesters: They felt someone were encroaching onto their territory, they felt insulted, and thought they had to defend themselves. Do I agree to their actions? That's not important. But what I merely want to say is that, had no one tried taking away their rights, they wouldn't feel insulted and retaliate.

Please do not reply to this posting: I am not interested in taking your attacks, as my intention (from the very begining of this issue) is merely to say what I know transpired due to the Interfaith issue. Do not go so low as to retaliate by hitting back at my postings: it just shows how you disrespect my freedom (and intention) in voicing an opinion.

And how many people actually have the wisdom and patience like Budha, Muhammad (s.a.w) and other well known religion figures? Definitely NOT you and I! Ha ha ha... Cheers!

quote: "as my intention (from the very begining of this issue) is merely to say what I know transpired due to the Interfaith issue."

the problem is the forum has NOTHING to do with the interfaith issue at all.

and even bigger problem is why do people feel so easily insulted? biggest problem is why do people (humans) need to defend their god/prophet?

Just because everyone does it doesn't mean its right or just. I find that malaysian democracy/republic?, is practice in such that the minority's right is not protected.

The forum is to address the minority's rights in the country. I find it odd that the so called self proclaimed voices of the majority would want to end it because someone else is taking away their rights?

I though it was the other away around?

Don't know what to say. Anything I say might offend someone. Best not to say it.

C-A-D,

*sigh* He thinks it's a fight and attack.

Generally, i don't usually reply to most postings but i feel have to today.

To pemerhati_msia

Was the dialogue/debate session organised by the Inter Faith group designed to take away the rights of the protest group? No it isn't! speaking from the perspective of one who is not from the protest group, i don't really give a damn what happens to them. if they wish to be ruled by their courts, so be it!

although i pity some of those who have no wish to be under that court (but have no choice because they were born that way), i can only sympathise and say 'Tough luck, mate! try another country'.

but what the inter faith forum does is to protect those who are in grey areas...those who were not from the group but are subjected to the group's courts...what they sought to discuss is protect is their own and to re-establish that this country was founded upon a secular constitution (hence religious rights/freedom for all regardless of race/religion).

But ever since, our great country during the rule of the magnificent Tun, amended our constitution to grant 'arbitrary powers' to a certain court, things have gotten less secular. Moreover, with certain judges reluctant to do their jobs properly, we have now inherited a judicial system which dares not honour a citizen's claim to secular justice! Freedom to religion as enacted in our constitution is now only applicable to a certain segment of our society...so where is the justice??

And just because the majority of the country belongs to a certain religion, it does not mean that it can't be secular ie. Turkey, Italy, Brunei, Indonesia, Philippines etc.

Anyway, like i pointed out earlier, the inter faith forum does not seek to remove the powers of the 'special court' it is merely trying to re-establish the country's found principles so that those in 'sticky' predicaments can obtain justice from a secular court and constitution.

imho, i don't think anyone's upset with protesters for protesting but when protesters are not protesting peacefully but seeking to disrupt a lawful meeting, well that's as barbaric as it can get. its like uninvited guests to a party demanding that they end it because the gatecrashers don't like what's on the menu.

just this forum has enabled us to share our opinions uninterupted (unless Jeff deletes us) even though we differ, that group should have also respected the lawful forum and allowed it to debate without disrupting it

beefstew,

Thanks for your comment, but please read all my postings again, only that this time, engage your brain as well.

Cheers

Chan,

Please read all my postings again. Thanks

Chan,

Great points. Sadly to said, the one who upholding and enforce the law "seems" to be on the wrong side.

*Sigh* And now he takes it personally...

Apparently, this is
yet another case of civil servant try to ride their boundary and ignore the guidlines.

This is not the first time that bigot civil servants think they can talk and act whatever they like! They just forgot who they . He is breaking the rules when issuing the letter.

However, since MOE are famous to play dirty politic to serve their political master, I'm not suprise such incident will keep reappearing in near future.

Beefstew,

Like I said earlier, it takes a muslim to understand their sentiments. And I didn't say "agree", ok? Nazri, for calling it a stupid act, really has to look into himself and ask himself if he really thinks and speak as a 1) Malay and 2) Muslim.

Just to offer my 2 cents.

If your parents are insulted, will your parents ask you to kill on their behalf? Because if they do, they might not your real parents. And if they forbid you to react violently, but you still did, its call disobedient.

So you choose for yourself.
Scenario A or B.

I believe all religion are peaceful, like all our parents that wish us to be. Question is do you want?

I do see some commenter try to spin the issue with craps like "because so and so feel insulted, so they must protect their rights".

"Feel insulted" to justify something fanatic or radical ? I though this only happens in mafia or ganster movie.

It is funny that everytime when a moderate spokeperson from certain group(e.g. Dr. Farish Noor) speak sense to the world; the other in the group will do the opposite.

I do not for one minute believe the protestors are afraid of losing their rights. I think they are afraid of losing their perceived dominance.

Is there a need to rationalize and understand irrational behaviours?

No religion, races and dignity were insulted. All these people did was to hijack religion to promote their form of bigotry. Thats the issue.

Any whiff of the acronym IFC and out of the woodworks will appear all kinds of samaritans trying to uphold and protect [sic] their professed faith, i.e. Islam.

My personal view is that this reactionary and beligerant behavior stems from insecurity, coupled with a dose of fascism that has crept into the Malay mindset (speaking in very general terms, trying hard not to over-generalize).

The term secular is often (mis)understood as anti-religious, which it is not. That, and the utopian wish for an Islamic theocracy - nevermind the fact that recent history has proven such a state is rarely utopian - totalitarian, at best.

While Islam exhorts its believers to use logic and their God-given intellect, what I observe of late is more and more an abhorance of logic and rational thinking, letting emotion and dogma-fueled knee-jerk reactions to come to the forefront.

They see Islam as an institution that must never be challenged - and as I have mentioned many times, the last thing I want to do is live in an institution...

whatever happened to tolerance and understanding that is promoted in every religion ie Islam? But as most commentators here will agree, "religion" has been overly abused.

I remember the quote "..its the house of god, let god protect it.." - during the early islamic times. This meant alot to me as a child.

What I see now is nothing to do with religion, its all about power. Once some people have it, they are affraid to loose it.

Its common for religion to be used in the context to coax support for religious sentiments.

Tolerence is in every religion, Force, Envy, Fear, Hate, Greed & Control are from people.

What we are dealing is with a bunch of insecured people.

As a true Msian, borned and brought up here, I can proudly say I always love my country. I always promote Msia overseas, and even denied chances to migrate to other countries, just to stay here and contribute my knowledge/energy.
However, as a genuine Msian, I feel growing insecurity here nowadays. When certain group of ppl can always crush others in the name of "peace and stability"; when certain group of ppl cannot tolerate any other religions/cultures/values except their own, I know my beloved country's future is gone.

anak_msia,

It doesn't matter where you are. Have faith. I love Malaysia. You are what you are because of your thinking, your action.. No need to blame, no need to be afraid, just have faith.

As usual I join the debate too damn late. Sigh..

Pemerhati_msia,
We're here for a dialogue. The problem with Malaysians is that we're too sensitive about race/religion etc. We never talk about sensitive stuff. Some us genuinely would like to know why these protestors created a ruckus over what was (a) a lawful assembly with police permits and (b) essentially a very noble pursuit, that is to engage in dialogue with various faiths so as to come to some understanding and tolerance of the judicial mess of our multi-faith system.

To be honest, I don't think your point that they were protecting their own rights holds much water. Firstly their rights weren't threatened whatsoever. Every Malaysian knows it is entrenched in the Constitution (unlike other things) that Islam retains supremacy over Malays and Muslims, and no one can or is trying to take that away. However, there's nothing wrong in protecting the rights of those on the fringes, the gray area, the Moorthys etc. If people would stop to THINK before they acted, instead of being clouded by delusions of their religion being attacked and their rights derogated, maybe the world would be a better place. Cue Danish cartoon protests. Cue mob/herd/mindless violence mentality. Cue John Lennon turning over in his grave.

Rule of law is when those on the side of law is protected.

The police was right to advise "article 11" to curtail the forum in face of the Mob to ensure the safety of everyone concerned.

However, the rule of law will require justice to the victims which include punishment for the mob organisers and compensation to the victims.

I hope the law can be amended to make it crystal clear that mob organisers who threaten the safety of others will be severely punished, including the payment of monetary compensation 10 times the outlay of the victims.

mikewang,
By "victims" I take it you mean those who have been inconvenienced by the mob's intrusion thus causing them to cut short their forum, and not to mean by a mob that went out of control and inflicted casualties? Because it seems as what Haniff Omar implied in today's Star, there are unseen hands pushing for the police to make a faux pas and create an issue. That's obviously the purpose of the mob.

Forget about the unseen hands. At least severely punish those Mob leaders who can be seen and identified.

Bankrupt them !

In my deep daily prayer and contemplation which I do at 5am every morning I could hear the voice of my conscience whispering "there is as many roads to the Divine as there are the minds of man".One and absolute is the spirit----transcendent,primordial,eternal,omnipresent,Omnipotent,clairedant,formless and beyond the web of time is HE.In his glory,wisdom and greatness he created the universe with all its beauty,harmony,contrast,perfections and imperfections.All of these are meant to depict his limitless abilities and capacities.

He had pronounced in the celebrated Hadis -al Kudsi thus:"In the beginning I was the treasury of wisdom I desired to be known and therefore I created the universe."The universe is nothing more than the Divine contemplating on his own Divine glory.

Our duty is to accept the Divine destiny and put our intellect and energy ,whilst our health permits ,to its best use.Living in harmony with our fellow man and nature around us to ride the tide of time with its technologies and scientific achievements to further express the boundless possibilities of the Divine glory.

In the process we are also making the best use of all the faculties bestowed upon us by the Divine.In expressing his glory we would be successful in this world and the next.

Amin-Rabul-Alamin
(Let it be so Allah oh Lord of all the Universe.)

In disrupting a legally-permitted forum using an illegal assembly of agitators, they only succeeded in compounding the urgency that the judicial issues need to be resolved because there seems to be a group of dogmatic people who are saying that others of their same faith do not represent the community and the religion, and in so doing imply they hold the monopoly over the practice of the faith by virtue of holding the monopoly over how it should be defined.

Would M2 care to come out now to say whether he had seen that matters would come to this so soon after he had unilaterally hijacked the constitution to suit some political agenda?

How would it be now if the forum be again held at the same venue on a later date?

Will the Badai folks and their well-wishers stage another pell-mell disruption? Will the police try to deflect that by cancelling a second permit, thereby showing they can be indirectly blackmailed by force by one group? Will the emasculated judiciary step in on one side or the other independent of who its members pray to themselves when disrobed? Will Badawi, the ceo of this country, stand up for what is 'fair and just', or will he again plea to one son to tutup one mata just because the other son is louder, more demanding, less confident, more deprived, perhaps spoilt and so steeped in personal mattters as to not have the confidence to let the fora finish and conclusions be drawn first before jumping the gun with counter-productive, peace-breaking disruptions, what more the temerity to ask why the forum was not held in the Malay Language?

Faiths founded on fear based on dogmas defined by men divide brothers, societies and nation.

True, the drug addict alone may not have the strength to kick the habit and thus coercive support from his society may help wean him off the seducements of modern-day life.

But are we talking about drug addicts here, or healthy, rational adults?

Ooops... sorry for late "rejoinder"... I thought I better add this in since my first comment sparked such a wildfire.

Sorry pemerhati_msia, I wasn't really referring to Islam when I made my first post. I was thinking more of the "Christiandom vs Dan Brown" overblown thing.

Otherwise I would have said "...threaten by just a fictional novel, a cartoon or a mere discussion group!