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Jonathan Kent pulled a fast one there

Sounds like another money wasting conference to me...do you really need 2 days to discuss these things and even if they can come with the "dos and don'ts" whilst in space, how they are going to monitored it?

Shouldn't MOSTI be more concerned of what our astronauts is going to do in space? Have they prepared the list of scientific experiments to be carried out? Instead of that...we have a 2 days conference to discuss "important" matters.

first of all this whole exercise is a WASTE OF RAKYAT's MONEY. Another way for Msia to create some sort of towering MSians with the use of money. YEa, the more they splash those money of ours the higher they get to.

careful jeff ..this is a sensitive issue..do not track into a teritory you do not understand ..one reader already says "Sounds like another money wasting conference to me..." ..careful careful dear jeff ... going to space is minor but to pray is vital

JEFF OOI says: I believe MOSTI sees the significance of the issue that prayer is vital. I am confident that our experts will come up with valid outcome at the end of the conference. If you hear anything by tiday, please uopdate everybody. I said this issue is unprecedented in Malaysia. That should include all irrespective of specific religion. Muslim is space, is that a territory you understood well? If yes, please rush to the conference to your two sen's worth right now and share your knowledge with our experts..

Balajoe,

This is an important issue for muslims.

I am curious to see what the outcome of this meeting.

I think Islamic experts from the middle east should be consulted as well so that the rules can govern ALL future muslim astronauts.

While there is still 25% chance that we will not have a muslim astronaut going to space next October, why do they want to discuss about this issue now which might turn out to be a non-issue ? Why not do it only after the final selection is made ? That is provided one of the three muslim men got selected.

JIGSAWPUZZLE,

Hate to break it to you but these Astronauts will not be the first Muslims in space.

"In 1985, Fahd's nephew, Prince Sultan bin Salman, went into space aboard the space shuttle Discovery as the first Arab and Muslim astronaut."

I believe he obtained all the rulings prior to his trip. Get the rulings, time and money saved.

balajoe,

jigsawpuzzle and atanjamil are right. Look at it this way: Malaysia will be the first country to actually venture into this area (ie Moslem prayer in space). This may be of no importance to non-Muislims, but it will put Malaysia on the Islamic map even more significantly.

For those who do not understand the gravity of this issue, prayer done on places where the night and day aren't easily predictable is something which needs exploration. Even in flight on any commercial airliner, Moslems need to know how prayer in such ackward situation needs to be performed.

While some may choose to evaluate this in the monetary sense, MOSTI is giving the Islamic civilization a very much needed and important push.

When the first astronaughts went into space, they learned basic stuff like eating, bathing, sleeping and the likes... MOSTI is merely adding "praying" to the list.

if the ministry is organising a conference on alien abduction, i can't say that it's a waste of time even though i'm one of those footing it as a taxpayer? you think this can get sensitive? you should hear the radical interpretations at the coffee shops.

Taken from www.islamonline.net
Question: If a Muslim is in outer space or on another planet, how should he go about facing Makkah while praying? If the person is in orbit around the Earth (making a full trip around the globe every 90 minutes or so) would he have to change position during prayer to keep facing Makkah?

Answer:
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother Edward! Thanks for your interest in contacting us.

As regards your question, we'd like first to state that the Islamic teachings are flexible and not rigid, for Islam caters for all peoples' conditions and future changes. Thus we find the Prophet of Islam commanding Muslims saying, “If I order you to do something, do it as best as you can.”

Responding to the point you raised,Dr. Rif`at Fawzi, professor of Shari`ah at Cairo University, states:

"While in the space (i.e. outside the atmosphere of the earth, as is the case with astronauts) a person can perform prayers according to the available means. He should strive hard to perform prayer while directing his face to the Qiblah, if he can do so.

However, if he finds it difficult to perform prayer while facing the Qiblah, he is permitted not to face it as long as he is driven by necessity."

Shedding more light on this issue, we find it relevant to cite the following fatwa given by Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada:

"Facing the direction of Qiblah (Ka`bah in Makkah) is a condition for the validity of prayer. It has been clearly established by the clear imperative of Allah in the Qur’an, “So from wherever you depart, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque.” (Al-Baqarah: 148). “And wherever you are (O Muslims) face towards it (when you pray)…” (Al-Baqarah: 149)

It is, therefore, unanimously agreed upon by scholars that one must face towards the Ka`bah while performing prayer, and as such, we are required to ascertain the direction to the best of our ability. But, if for some reason, we are unable to determine the precise direction, then we must act upon our best educated guess and pray accordingly.

If, however, we are unable to face the direction of Ka`bah because of circumstances beyond our control—as is the case while traveling by air sometimes— then we must still perform our prayer by facing whichever direction we possibly can. In this case also, if possible, first make your opening Takbeer (i.e. saying 'Allah is the greatest' in the beginning of the prayer) facing the Qiblah—if it can be ascertained—and then sit down and pray facing whichever direction the plane travels. We are not allowed to skip our prayer on the excuse we cannot face the Qiblah.

According to an established principle of Islamic jurisprudence, if for any reason we are unable to fulfill a certain condition or pre-requisite on which the validity of a certain act of worship is dependent, then we must still perform the act without the condition.

Allah tells us in the Qur’an, “So fear Allah as best as you can, and listen and obey…” (At-Taghabun: 16); the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “If I order you to do something, do it as best as you can.”"

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.islam.ca

Allah Almighty knows best

The Q&A dated 8 october 2002.

And ktemoc blogged about this conference on 21/4/2006.

agree with jigsaw puzzle, this is kind of tricky issue coz it's hard to determine the prayer times in outer space.. as for JAM post, can u enlighten me & others about Fahd's nephew, Prince Sultan bin Salman space exploration aboard shuttle Discovery ??

"As regards your question, we'd like first to state that the Islamic teachings are flexible and not rigid, for Islam caters for all peoples' conditions and future changes."

Can someone further enlighten on this phrase, pls. It has significance to a lot of people, muslims and non-muslims.

kamil has managed to find the answer to the "important" question via internet. no need to waste time and money to "conference", have kuih-muih and teh tarik...

This is very interesting. God, the creator of the universe and everything in it, must be perfect in every way.If he gives and edict, it must be universally applicable.If it cannot be unversally applied, then it cannot be god's edict.
Can anybody care to comment.

So the astranauts will be doing "SIGHTSEEING" as a muslim in the space showcase?

Bare in mind that all outer space mission always involve some science experiment, because it is good opportunity to carried it in grativyless environment.

Before start discussing direction of the Mekkah, I just want to know whether those "incharge" has any idea about kind of experiment will carried out in space.

And not to lost the precious time on space, should our dear muslim astranaut CUT the FRIDAY lunch break practice? E.g. have a break from 12:30pm to 3pm?

X-|

Things that an individual believes must make sense or common sense to prevail.

Things that an individual thinks must be logical and full of compassion.

Things that an individual does must be practical and brings goodness to humankind.

That's a simple guide to leads one precious life. One decides its own destiny.

Can't see what the problem is. Just ask the Saudi how they resolved the problem and just copy. This whole conference will be invalid if the only Muslim to have gone to space and experienced it there before is not a speaker.

In any case, if this news has hit the BBC, I cannot imagine it being anything more than to ridicule. And can you really blame them? You can't because this is indeed something to ridicule in teh context of space travel.

As a non-muslim I think it's inappropriate for me to comment on the proper methodology for prayers to be conducted in outer space by a Muslim. My only problem with this situation is why is MOSTI taking the lead on this issue? It's is a ministry which is responsible for scientific matters. And any good scientist will tell you that there must be a clear separation of science and religion in order for the former to be pursued in a manner that is conducive and is able to accomplish objectivity.
If MOSTI is going around organizing seminars on theology how can it be taken seriously as a scientific outfit?

REFORMIS74,

Do a quick Google for some information or check Ktemoc's blog. He wrote about this a while ago.

To my understanding, the Prince went and saw an Imam to ask about all these questions. The Imam said, do the best you can do in the situation. Now that's enlightenment. Who would've though it?

The first Muslim Astronaut courtesy of its ally USA was from Saudi Arabia on a NASA shuttle trip into space. He got special dispensation from the Grand Mufti. Why not just ask him or take his experience as a precedent?

So if the astronaut was Chinese would there be an conference to establish the viability of burning joss sticks and other offerings in space?

JEFF OOI says: Another stereotyping that lacks cultural anchorage. Chinese don't burn joss sticks and offerings. Taoists do. Some taoists are Chinese. Chinese are not all Taoists.

Mithos,

If you were to build an underwater city, would you consult with just the same people who built the successful Petronas Twin Towers? Or would you involve some aqua engineers? Precisely why MOSTI is involved, because they know the outer space stuff that the religious departments don't.

Cheers.

pemerhati_msia, your logic fail me. Mixing your first logical statement doesn't mean it will make other illogical statement correct.

As a science entitiy, facing the religious direction is NONE of MOSTI business. Unless MOSTI is asked to make a device to get the direction.

"As regards your question, we'd like first to state that the Islamic teachings are flexible and not rigid, for Islam caters for all peoples' conditions and future changes."

I agree that Islam is as mentioned above but not about Muslim. That is why they need to have conference, etc. They are just too rigid.

Prayer is between a person and Allah, not how authorities want a person to do it. If Muslim (not Islam) really believe Islam is flexible, then when comes to situations that is beyond the person's control, then it will be based on the person sincere heart, meaning he heart is to Allah only in his prayer and prays for 5 times a day (24 hours) regardless of the time since there's no sunrise and sunset. This is the most important criterial.

For example, in the middle of the desert, if a person runs out of water and he cannot clean himself before prayer yet he pray with a sincere and truthful heart, will he fare better or worse off than a physically clean person who prays because he is afraid of authority's punishment. Which person Allah will accept more?

If you think deeper, the latter is actually insulting Allah's intelligent by pretending. This is worse than not praying at all. Any debate to this? I am open to other opinions and thinking.

We do not require a scientist to inform you that you cannot pray in space. It is too expensive and time consuming and a waste of resource. Just concentrate on the scientific experiments or whatever you want to do for the betterment of mankind. For example, maybe some form of sensors, placed on the astronauts body to indicate alteration before, during and after reaching space. In fact the conference should be "what sort of scientific experiments should we perform in space". This speaks volume of our scientific minds and why there is absolute loss of confidence in the ability of the majority to govern this country forward.

moo_t,

I had made it as simple as i could put it so that even the lowest iq person can understand it. Anyway, let me say it again in the simplest manner:

The religious department doen't know much about travelling in space. MOSTI does. They work hand in hand to achieve an outcome that benefits Moslem astronaughts. Faham?

While this can be a debatable issue, I hope people learn about Islam and the prayer requirements of Islam BEFORE commenting. It is very easy to comment as your heart feels it, but it must be commented using knowledge in Islam. Otherwise, we only have a series of comments that is not helping the issue at hand.

"The two-day meeting will also mull how Muslim astronauts perform ablutions with water rationing in space and prepare food according to Islamic standards."

This issue has been solved long time ago. If water is not available or need to be conserved to sustain life, then ablutions can be done by using sand/dust if not available then it is enough only by running your hands on the relevant body parts. During my time we even learn this in Form 1 or 2 Pengetahuan Agama Islam class.

To me it looks like this conference is more for some event management companies trying to make a quick buck.

Sydput, your comments are fair, however I dont think that we have any part in determining what experiments are going to be done by the Malaysian astronaut..all we're getting out of this is a ticket to space...and back (hopefully, unless in a typical lackadaisical manner our negotiators forgot to negotiate for that..:). The space program belongs to the Russians and they determine what, if any, experiments will be conducted and the astronaut will be given training and instructions on tasks to perform...it's not like Dato JJ is gonna detail an action item list for our space boy..
The whole thing is a farce if u ask me unless we had some kind of space program in place like China, India and Brazil with a specific long term goal. I think the argument by our gov't was that this was supposed to spark off interest in science for our future generation..Personally I think the money (how much was it again?) could have been better spent sending school kids on a trip to our science center (assuming we have one) or buying them a ticket to watch Star Wars!! Still not too late to back out of this Pak Lah!!

I see some people trying to shut people mouth then using common sense. Isn't it "carried the best possible pratice" is valid answer to the whole issue? What if there is an emergency?

The astranauts is attending a science expedition, it is not a tour. I don't against it if the astranauts pay themself to the space then using tax payer money.

BTW, if some people keep following the book, they can NEVER go to space. Because water is recycle from the urine.

The answer provided by www.islamonline.net did not rectify the problem of determining the:
1) Subuh, Mahgrib, Zohor & other prayer time.
2) If it fall in the month of Fasting (Ramadhan), how will muslim fast? in ISS station it was 45 minutes days time & 45 minutes night time.
3) If one day muslim was sent to the moon & the planet earth was above u?

IMHO, how to perform prayers or ablutions in space in a religeon issue, muslim issue in particular. So why should MOSTI conducting the conference?. We have JAKIM, every state has it owns islamic department, we have a lots of Islamic NGOs in Malaysia. The 4 candidates for the outer space trip has been made public long time ago. 3 of them are Muslims, so there is 75% chances that it will be muslim the one get selected. If there is any issue on the practicing islam in space that need to be sorted out, it should be from the initiative of the islamic body. These bodies the one should realise '... oh my fellow brother might be is space in near future. so we need to help him to remain muslim and be able to perform what ever required as muslim there...'.

But we heard nothing (yet) from these bodies. Why aaa?.. or is it not really an issue?. After all, muslim is allowed to eat pork if under certain conditions. Muslim can pray with only moving their eye under certain conditions or even with only their mind if he only able to do so. Hence, to pray in space will not be a great problem i guess. No need for big conference for that.

If ever need one, lets muslim body conducting it. This issue clearly for the benefit of muslim, so even if really really MOSTI need clarification, ask JAKIM. If JAKIM dont know, then JAKIM the one who conduct the conference. JAKIM is Jabatan KEMAJUAN Islam after all. Living in space is of the advances that muslim have to face, so be prepared. If JAKIM ever conduct one, no need for fancy and expensive hotels. We have lots of beautiful under utilize mosque in Malaysia. Most of the bigs one built with conference room, library etc. We can make full use of it.

Yes, i suspect it might be event organizer is trying to make easy money here.

Not even one scientific experiment?

How about one to disprove the parallel-universe hypothesis, that there are other universes in co-existence with ours because in creating ours, others just appear like clusters of bubbles and one becomes the other when you start measuring it from where you're, an idea used to explain why physical constants that we know are fitted exactly to enable our survival.

Nothing like that? not even one teeny weeny experiment? another junket trip?

Well Neil, since u brought it up I'm sure our astronaut will have some time on the side, or during lunch break to try out some things that will bring good to us..so I know it's a little bit off the blog topic but maybe we should start proposing things for our astronaut to do in space..lemme kick it off:
1) Count the number of SMS that can be sent from space to Akademi Fantasia competition to determine effect of gravity on SMS'ing..
2) Try to see how much extra space S'pore has reclaimed with sand..wait a minute, we can use Google Map for this..scratch it
3)Determine best way to connect new CIQ complex in JB to Causeway..wait..scratch that too
4)See if Putrajaya is visible from space
5) Determine if Roti Canai texture is different when "tossed" in space
6) Calculate the density of foam when teh tarik is made in space..this one is tricky because extra training is required to toss the teh from one cup to another in the absence of gravity..repeat for all flavors of teh available in Mamak stalls
7) Determine if the Keris weighs the same in space as it does on Earth
8)and the number 1 thing to do in space: Determine feasibility of putting up a toll in space..special request by Works MInistry...

Do we realy should send astronaut? i think we should send one whole space ship instead, what kind of thing that they will do in outer space. I think this is just another malaysia boleh project. About the muslim religious activity in space, just bear in mind muslim is a flexible religion in manyways. so i dont think praying, fasting could be an issue for the astronaut. And even if he is muslim first is do he pray or not?

Neil, I think this is a sponsored "space tour" as far as our astraunaut is concern, so don't expect any high tech experiment.

Even if there is, the Russians have full control of what experiment to be done, not us.

But if a muslim need to pray while in space, no harm discussing about it. I think the Russian would have no issue as long as it does not affect the operation of the trip.

From what I see, this is just an effort to get a name in the international level. Nothing more because we're not ready, yet.

Geeez ,, what next ? it rains and floods in KL everytime and we worry about how someone ....... peel the banana for the monkey .

I thought Muslims got special dispensation from praying when they embark on long journeys. Anyway it seems to me we should have better things to ponder about rather than how to pray on board a space craft. Physical training for example, dealing with vertigo, weightlessness etc. Mental training, dealing with claustrophobia, crew members, etc. If our representative (if Muslim) is going to be fussy about what he eats, what time he prays and how, then the money is better spent on a day trip to KLCC, where they have halal food and a surau with running water. I read somewhere that 1 kg of weight taken into space costs thousands of dollars. Water is such a precious commodity that it is recycled from waste. And where the heck is the prayer mat going to go.

We always seem to miss the wood for the trees.

How difficult can this be?

So from wherever you depart, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque.” (Al-Baqarah: 148). “And wherever you are (O Muslims) face towards it (when you pray)…” (Al-Baqarah: 149)

Just have a video cam that points towards mecca and the astronaut can just pray to the image captured by the cam. So the guy faces Mecca right?

Washing?
What's the Koran verse on this? Does Allah require the washing to be with water? If not can they use some other cleaning agent? I think the whole idea is to be clean before praying to God.

Prayer Time ?
Fix it based on the notional waking and sleeping time of the astronaut. Then reference it to the place on earth that correspond to that notional time eg if astronaut say he wakes up at 4, then at that point in time he wakes up - determine where on earth is it 4 am and then the whole waking day will be based on the time of that location on earth including sunrise and sunset.

Boleh?

to call together a group of experts to a two-day conference for this little issue??? totally waste of time and money!

Off topic;

What happened to the first roti canai in space?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4331979.stm

who knows, the PM might cancel the whole thing at the last hour. Myabe pay the russians another rm100 million.

groo, more than that...

This space program was a reciprocal deal between Malaysian and Russian governments for the purchase of Sukhoi SU-30MKM jet fighters by Malaysia. If not mistaken, the gov had purchased 18 of them worth US$900 million (Asia Times - 21 Jan 2004).

FYI, many Muslim astronauts/cosmonauts have gone to space. Among others are Abdul Ahad Mohmand of Afghanistan, Musa Manorov of Azerbaijan, Sultan bin Salman al-Saud of Saudi Arabia, Muhammed Faris of Syria and a few others from Kazakhstan. How did they solve this problem? Did anyone from our space agency care to ask them?

Mithos...

7) Determine if the Keris weighs the same in space as it does on Earth

*LOL* this is funny!

Who is the event organizer for the proposed conference?

What happen in the future if you are travelling out of this solar system? or even galaxy?

Where to pinpoint the sun and qiblah? How to determine its sembayang Jumaat? it can be always friday or no friday up there. what about the 5 times for prayer? Which month to puasa? If I spend my whole lifetime in a spaceship, how can I go to a mosque?

Btw, What happen if we are able to exit this universe altogether? I see even bigger problem.

Well now I see some good in this conference. And I foresee more to come.

Btw, do we need to fix a loudspeaker on top of the spaceshuttle so that all the crew members know its prayer time, even in deep space?

Just some of the questions that should be tackled by this conference.

Littlebird,
That article is hilarious!! Obviously BBC is trying to pull a fast one!! I mean come on... "Scientists will be sent to America, and put to work researching the best way of delivering roti canai and other dishes like coconut rice, fried noodles and of course teh tarik, literally "pulled tea", to its intrepid explorers??
Is this Jonathan Kent guy for real?? Doesn't BBC have standards for publishing articles?? Or could it be..no..no way...but could it be true???

Mithos,

The article is real. You can "yahoo"(google, if you insist) for more. One is on batik design suits. see here http://www.spacedaily.com/2005/050309060810.pqsu60w6.html

But let;s get back to the main issue - it is good thing that malaysia is emphasis rukun negara (kepercayaan kepada tuhan) even in space but so far have they come up with any planned experiments.

Something really useful. In fact, many would have joined in if they invited malaysia to give suggestion what experiment that out Malaysian should conduct in space.

Even the Mexicans have a clear idea on how to proceed with a Space Program..and the authority for approval is done via their own parliment and not a top down decision like ours...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060427/sc_nm/mexico_space_dc