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"We were running a campaign, trying to create pressure."
He says he'd helped organise visits to Egypt and Lebanon, where he and other Muslims from Denmark displayed the cartoons.

But that those trips were aimed at garnering political support, not inciting riots."

(Quote from referenced article)

Now he pleads innocence. See what happens when you try to play with fire!!!

I say, he knew the score!

The 12 cartoons were published back in Sept 2005. No one will bother about it because it’s not funny, too complicate to understand what it’s about and some of it is in Danish. If those cartoons really offensive, why take such a long time to react?

jeff
wo..all my comments gone. what happeneded?

freespeech?

JEFF OOI says: I promote Thinking Aloud. You were aloud WITHOUT thinking, and had been posting short-takes that can only instigate hatred so I have no mercy and relegate them to where they deserve - JUNK COMMENTS. Once you exceeded your quota you will be automatically banned by the blog engine, meaning I give you rope and you decide how long you need to hang yourself.

"Imam Ahmed Abu- Laban, the Danish Muslim cleric accused of instigating the world wide protests over offensive caricature depicting Prophet Mohammed, says the escalating violence is no longer about the cartoon, but a reaction to the West's view of Islam. " obviously they are trying to start a war.

JEFF OOI says: I shall keep this comment of yours to illustrate how you have been speaking aloud WITHOUT thinking.

So, is this whole episode a so called a clash of civilization and free speech?

I do not and never think so. [ DELETED - Inflammatory ]
No longer who is right or worng, but who is keeping the issue burning, and getting advantage out of this.

i guess so The Admin

WITHOUT thinking. from the message Jeff posted is very obvious. imam wanna take this opportunity to pick a fight on the west. excuses.
//dunt you think so?

WITHOUT THINKING?

madguyho:
>
It takes time to gain momentum and especially so when it is not covered in the mainstream media of the Middle East.

Will human race ever live in peace? Not so because the 5000yrs history has shown not.
In recent, WW2 we had one man Hitler who led one nation to war (followed by Japan). Following that it was the commies who wants to take over the whole world.
Today, it's the crazy terrorists. In fact they are more dangerous/damaging than the commies. Commies dare not blow themselves up but the terrorist suicide bombers will at any place.
One main cause of today's problem is corrupt governments who steal from the welfare of the people and instigating violence everywhere as diversion. Compounding this, we have so many crazy different type of people with their so-call ideals causing havoc.

I still like the previous blog title that related to this one "In God we trust".

We can't trust human being.

From the surface, it looks like the whole incident is religious base. The bad news is, it is no as simple. If anyone care to read through previous blog comment, you will find it is a mix of social economics and political issue.

This so called "unity of religions" will not last, despite it is used by political power and will bring disaster to the society.

It is fair enough that serious minded, genuinely pious/devout people defend their religions, especially when they do so as a matter of what they believe their eligions teaches or obligates them to do.

Even then, I think all such people still need to bear in mind that they live in a world together with others who do not necessarily think or believe as they do. Hence the need for them to moderate their actions, and vice versa.

But when it comes to anyone acting for purposes which may not be genuine - anything from simple following the crowd mob behaviour, shouting and protesting without actually being able to say why on earth they are doing so, then I think no true religion supports such actions.

And how much worse when anyone acts to fan flames and incite hate using lies and fake photos.

The ends DO NOT justify the means, so however good the grounds for the original grievience may be, such lies only serve to weaken their case.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Jyllands-Posten and Flemming Rose have wronged the Muslims.

But there is also no doubt in my mind that Imam Ahmed is now also as wrong as they are.

Both parties need to come to their senses and stop their inflamatory actions.

If nothing else, on the basis that he is a religious leader, Imam Ahmed show lead the way and apologise for taking the wrong steps.

Perhaps then Flemming Rose, and those in his camp, will see the wrror of their ways.

jeff:
I find on issues touching religions, it's often various parties shouting all at once -- making a cacophony of noise and no one really listening...
Through all this exchange, does anyone come out any wiser?
I think I'd go back to non-denominational Max Ehrmann's poem:
"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste
And remember what peAce there may be in SILENCE..."

to madguyho & AdmiralChengHo:

admiral, you were only partly right. the truth is that the danish muslim group first tried to prosecute the newspaper under danish anti-blasphemy laws. as mentioned in wikipedia, the police investigations started on 27/10. on 06/01, the case was rejected by a danish prosecutor. the danish muslim group only decided to publicize this issue internationally AFTER this date. that is why we only heard about this recently.

a major question is whether the prosecutor was right in rejecting the case. read the danish laws for yourselves:
* (Section 266b of the Danish Criminal Code)
- "Any person who, publicly or with the intention of wider dissemination, makes a statement or imparts other information by which a group of people are threatened, insulted or degraded on account of their race, colour, national or ethnic origin, religion, or sexual inclination shall be liable to a fine or to imprisonment for any term not exceeding 2 years."
* (Section 140)
- "Those who publicly mock or insult the doctrines or worship of any religious community that is legal in this country, will be punished by a fine or incarceration for up to 4 month."
(taken from: http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/0086.shtml )

if you were a danish judge, would you say that the JP cartoons broke the above laws? personally, i would say yes, so the next question is whether danish muslims have been given justice in this case.

Despite 5000 years of civilisation, the human races still behave like 5 year-olds. I tease you, you tease back, lose already, fight-lah!

Jeff

You asked when is there a closure?

I presume you mean an end to this cartoon crisis.

Well, based on the pronouncements of world leaders, Muslim and non-Muslim, at present, there is still NO light at the end of the tunnel in this dark crisis. Just trains approching and coming down headlong and fast.

In fact, I wonder what will it take to snap this crisis off the radar screen. An apology by those Govts (not likely to happen)? or Muslims allowing this to pass (there will be those who will not allow it to happen, given the present climate after 9/11)?

To make it worse, there is an ongoing up-manship on which side can produce more obscene and disgusting cartoons.
Two already announced: one the Holocaust competition in an Iranian newspaper and secondly a cartoon of Anne Frank in bed with Hitler. Both attacking the Jews/Israelis.

Why attack Jews? we ask. The background is most probably the Palestinian conflict and the perceived blackhand of of the international Jewish lobby in Europe, UK and US.As one website, "Europe has sacred cows, even if they are not religious sacred cows" And attacking the Holocaust is one of them.

In addition, this crisis has fan out all the way to Africa.

The Al-Aqaeda chaps are watching in the shadows and for all we know, are planning their next steps to exploit the current crisis to the hilt.

See: http://newscompass.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoon-crisis-nigerian-mps-burn.html

In response to your question, I can't see any closure at this present time, unfortunately.

You ask when will this problem end. Well, just an analogy. When you feel safe in your house, you put down your guard and live easy. It is when you don't feel secure in your house, that is when you put on the defenses. Sometimes for some people that could also translate to offence.

Smilarly here, it would seem like there are insecurities here that are being tested. When you are secure in your knowledge and believe you don't really need to care who does what to you or your believes...When for what ever reason you feel insecure that is when you probably raise a storm in defense.

In that sense I would applaud Malaysian Muslims for showing themselves to be a lot more secure in themselves, their faith and their believes.

When is there a closure? Perhaps when people start to realise that there are other people in this world too (and yes, I refer to both the rioters, imams AND the newspaper). And perhaps when people start to realise that religion is no excuse to cause trouble. Perhaps when people awaken to the fact that religion is not worth dying and killing for. Perhaps when people stop taking things so DAMN SERIOUSLY! Maybe when we can all laugh at and criticise one another without fear of reprisal, perhaps then there will be closure.

That's a lot of perhaps', so I'll take the cynical view that people never change, that religious fanatics will be religious fanatics, politicians will be politicians, arms dealers will be arms dealers, and that as long as people feel that their god approves them fighting for him, all this will never end.

i came across this translated version from a german newspaper. it's not a great translation but you get what the man is trying to say. i found his analogy quite convincing and have to admit i was highly amused by the move too.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fdebatte%2F0%2C1518%2C399670%2C00.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

"the escalating violence is no longer about the cartoon, but a reaction to the West's view of Islam."

that sucks.

and as sucks as people relating muslims to terroism.

Period.

There is nothing wrong with the protest on the streets of London.

Freedom of speech, remember?

After all, the fools carrying the signs calling for another terrorist attack or for people to be massacred are only insulting themselves. It shows how small-minded and intolerant they are of others' opinions and rights, whilst simultaneously demanding those rights themselves.

Its people like this who sully the good name of Muslims, not some cartoons by ignorant Danes.

Its a good job that Londoners are not as sensitive as some other people, eh.

Oh and by the way, Muslims worldwide should demand an apology from these bunch of protestors and the others who went around burning embassies.

The actions of these fanatics have tarnished the name of their religion more than any cartoon.

How convenient. Create an issue, then when it boils over, says the issue is now different and deny accountability.

If he wants to, the imam can certainly do something to moderate the issue. As it is, I doubt we can depend on the him for any closure.

Hey Jeff,
I need to know this....why can't/couldn't the protestors protest in a civilised manner. That's all i want to know. Why behave like barbarians. WHo are they to judge whats right and whats wrong?

For example, If my neighbours gives to much freedom to his children, and i don't to mine, who am i to say that it is wrong?

Did you see Christians in Europe burning the US flag when "The Last Temptation of Christ" was released. Did anyone ask for MArtin SCorcese to be beheaded? Of course there were protest, but it was in a civilised manner.

What do you get by killing and burning flags/building? It is the these muslims that a giving the peace loving muslims a bad name. They're distorting Islam. It makes one think that Muslims are so easily offended. ( as though they lack faith)

dr.strangelove

Same question. Why is there such a thing as a road-rage.

As somebody on jeff's blog quoted an incident where he is a passenger and his friend, driving the car, put up the obscene finger sign at a motorist for over taking him dangerously and that motorist stopped over, came over to his friend and re-arranged his friend's face.

You are asking a mob whose anger and passion raged beyond reason, just like Jeff's reader who got his face rearranged without his permission simply for putting up his finger at the face-rearrangement specialist at the roadside

You see, many people get offended when (as mentioned above) middle finger is given, or physically challenged. So the ultimate reaction would be retaliate aggressively to demonstrate control or power. Afterwhich, that person will most probably regret, feeling totally lousy for being foolish and childish.

So, to answer Jeff's question, it will end with God's will. What is done to others will be done unto you. I cannot vouch for Islam, but I am sure that those who condemn God (in any way) will be judged. Besides, hostility and aggression does not promise you a place in heaven. Overall, it does not bring any good. Therefore, when someone tease you or mock your religion, I'd pray for that person. Because when you return the gesture, so then you are claiming to be the Judge, where you do not even deserve.

Dont go to war in the name of religion... but pray hard for guidance so that you can be a living testimony of God-fearing people. What other weapon stronger than to have a good foundation in you?

Peace.

/// Same question. Why is there such a thing as a road-rage. ///

F&H,

Not quite the same thing with road-rage. Sure, road rage is irrational. I have seen a guy caught in traffic on the freeway in LA pulled out his gun and shot the driver in front simply for driving off too slowly.

But these are incidents involving indivduals or small groups of people. Even the Rodney King riots involved small groups of people, and that was under extreme unfairness and provocation.

What we are seeing here are organized mobs. Involving whole communities. Involving whole country. Involving many countries all over the world. Involving the whole ummah.

Surely, there is something at work here that is beyond what causes a road rage or a happy slapping (as was the rage in the UK some time back).

So, to Jeff's quesion of "where to draw the line?" Or, "will there be a closure?"

My optimistic answer to the closure question, is, yes, there will eventually be closure to this particular cartoon-related issue once the governments in the various countries put their foot down and say "enough is enough".

My pessimistic answer, is, for these similar kinds of religion-inspired violence, the closure will be a long time in coming. Closure will only come about when amoral and unscrupulous politicians stop exploiting religious issues AND religious leaders stop using their sway over followers to exert political power. Religions and politics are a potent brew and a power keg.

I can do no better than to quote Mr Lamber of Preston:

///
When the religious rent-a-mob ceases it's violence;

when all religions relinquish their ambition to hold sway over the entire earth;

when all countries realise that their laws only apply in their territories;

when everyone realises that religion is only a tool for political power;

when national laws are observed in preference to ancient rules interpreted by unelected zealots..

..then and only then will thinking men and women of peace begin to address the problems that beset our world.

S Lambert,
Preston
///

I reprint below the editorial by Washington Post, one of the better write-ups on the Cartoon Crisis. Balanced and reflects the general thinking of fair-minded people.

I have my gripes with Washington Post in quite often on their editorials, but this is one of the better pieces by the editors of the newspaper.

For those readers on Jeff' blog who still want to pontiificate on the right and wrongs of crisis, they should read this piece... saves alot of time for others to explain on this blog.

I reprint in full, as Washington Post website needs you to register ( a hassle).

---

The Uses of Cartoons

Wednesday, February 8, 2006;

EXTREMISTS AND political opportunists across the Muslim world are rushing to exploit the controversy over the publication of cartoons of the prophet Muhammad. Late to the game but conspicuous in its crudeness is the Iranian government of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, which yesterday oversaw a second day of demonstrations outside European embassies while a newspaper it controls announced a contest for Holocaust cartoons.

The Taliban is probably behind violent demonstrations in Afghanistan, including one directed at the largest U.S. military base in the country.

And the Bush administration has rightly fingered the secular but cynical government of Syria for orchestrating the burning of embassies in Damascus and Beirut.

A clash of civilizations between Muslims and the West is the fondest ambition of al Qaeda, the Taliban and other terrorist organizations, from Britain to Indonesia.

But it also is a convenient refuge for authoritarian regimes hoping to resist the rising pressure for political liberalization in the Middle East.

That explains why Muslim outrage over the original publication of the cartoons in Denmark was patiently cultivated not by Osama bin Laden but by the Egyptian and Saudi governments.

According to an account in the Wall Street Journal, Egypt's ambassador in Denmark worked with local Islamic clerics as they prepared an inflammatory propaganda campaign about the cartoons for dissemination through the Middle East last fall.

In December a delegation of the Danish militants was received by senior clerics and government officials in Cairo, where the manufactured outrage contrasts with the quotidian persecution of a Christian minority and publication of anti-Semitic libels in the government-controlled press.

Europeans, too, have participated in the stoking of passions, if for different reasons.

The cartoons, whose vulgarity and offensiveness are beyond question, were published as a calculated insult last September by a right-wing newspaper in a country where bigotry toward the minority Muslim population is a major, if frequently unacknowledged, problem.

The Danish government depends for support in Parliament on a far-right populist party with an anti-immigrant agenda: Maybe that's why Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen arrogantly refused to meet with ambassadors from Muslim countries last fall, when the controversy might have been defused.

Last week, as protests escalated in the Middle East, European newspapers in Spain, France and Germany rushed to republish the cartoons, claiming they were defending freedom of speech.

But there is no threat to freedom of speech in Europe -- no newspaper was prevented from publishing the cartoons, and demands by Muslims that European governments impose such censorship were quickly dismissed.

In reprinting the drawings the European papers demonstrated not their love of freedom but their insensitivity -- or hostility -- to the growing diversity of their own societies.

It is just such attitudes, more than any insult to Islam, that have inspired much of the Muslim resentment toward the West, and the growing anger of Muslims who live in Europe.

The few heroes in this sordid episode reside not in continental newsrooms but in the Middle East. In Jordan, where freedom of speech really is at issue, two editors bravely republished the offensive cartoons; they now face prosecution. In Iraq, the Shiite Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani condemned the Muslim inciters. It's not an accident that these Arab voices of reason are also leading proponents of democracy: They, more than anyone, are the ones deserving of the West's support.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/07/AR2006020701849.html

If those cartoons really offensive, why take such a long time to react?
Because people have started reprinting those cartoons.

Folks

I have decided to end my input into the discussin on this cartoon crisis with my earlier posting of the Washington Post editorial . The editorial adequately sums up my position on the issue.

Any further dicussion and responses from my part with be circular and repetitious.

Thanks for your company... no malice intended in the exchange of ideas

Those cartoons where reprinted because it sells like hot cakes. The more the reactions the better for the press, and the more they will print. The biggest winner of all is the press.

Back in 2003, I read a series of reports in a National Malay Dialy that questioned the faith I believe in. If my memory serves me right , in the 3 part series ; they even went to the extent of claiming that my saviours body was stolen and not resurrected . The article went against sound church doctrine.
I felt angry on reading the article . Dissappointed that such misconception could have been allowed by the editors to mislead the general population . Thus, I too understand what our Muslim friends are going through .
However, I decided that any educated retaliation would be just swept under the rug by those fanatical enough to write the article . So, since I decided that my God is bigger than the article and those who wrote about it, I said a prayer in silence and went on with my life .
If this matter is to be settled, than the party who is hurt should decide weather the situation demands a retaliation or a learned response . A learned response will bring about the respect of others not only for themselves but for the religion they profess . Barbarism will solve nothing and only cause alienation . Lets let love and sound mind prevail .

Honestly I think the worst thing any Muslim could do is to react to the cartoons in a violent manner ...

At first everyone was condeming the cartoons but now they are condeming the Muslims for reacting by rioting...

By reacting violently without reading between the lines as to why these thing happen in the first place is really foolish

Im honestly memang bengang la apa that Danish paper buat tapi as much as I know I am right to be upset ...I also know that if I react violently about it I m just painting a worst picture of Islam ...which is totally not right ...Remember a lot of non Muslim really dont understand Islam and associate it with Anti America la, terrorist la, suicide bombers la...If we keep react in such a violent way who can blame them also right?

So we Malaysian Muslim should set an example an show that we are not that low ...

Is Islam so brittle that it could not subject to any criticism or debate? The Danish cartoonists were invited to draw something to express the perception of Mohamad for a children book, and the behavior of the mob probably reflects the true description of some of the cartoons.

Similar cartoons about other religions probably would be shrug of the shoulders or laughed away and would be soon forgotten.

Wouldn’t it be better if the imam of Demark could explain to the non Muslims cartoon by cartoon with their correct belief? A simple way would be like this; “No, it is not like that, but blah blah blah ----“; instead, the imam went over to Middle East to organize mob destruction.

Isn’t it these clerics who whip up the violence and preach intolerance to protect their positions of powers? To make their people gullible and to dominate their women seems to be the selfish greed of these clerics. The Taliban is the obvious example.

When these clerics couldn’t defend their thought, the easier way out is to classify it as sensitive. Meaning:- cannot be talked about. This also explains why most Muslim countries are backward, people are poorly educated. The youth are street roamers, unemployed, and have nothing better to do than responding to their imams to go for riots, suicide bombing and destruction. Freedom of expression is an element that leads to progress of society, and if everything, not to the liking of the imams remains sensitive, then there won’t be any further discussion and there will not be any progress.

Drawings and cartoons would not kill people but the fanatic elements lead to killings and destruction.

Other religions teach people to be good, not to kill so that they could finally go to heaven, but the Islam fanatics teach people to kill before they could go to heaven.

Even the moderate Islamic people dare not say too much; sensitive. The Jordanian editors were arrested because of the reprint of the cartoons.

All religions teach people to be good. I don’t know how far it is true; Christianity and Islam came from the same source, Jerusalem. They were brothers. A Chinese poem says this way; “cooking beans by burning the stalks of the beans, all came from the same root, why cooking own beans so fast by burning own stalks so quickly?”

Islam needs reform. To instill back the good teachings of Islam and discard the violence attitude and behavior perhaps is the most urgent duty of the moderate Islamic people. Before that, the closure is remote as it will appear somehow in another form.

Countrymen, whilst debating the issue at hand, it is convenient to dismiss the issues without a proper understanding of the fundamental principles, and we must empathize with our friends whose religion is under attack, or at least respect the perception that their sacred religion is under attack (reading the chronological sequence of events, it is indeed a deliberate and calculated attack; today it is Islam, and we’ll never know when Buddhism and Hinduism is next)!

I had several lengthy discussions with our Muslim friends, and to summarize, these are their concerns. This list is of course without limitation as there are many pent-up issues:
a. the caricature of the Prophet Mohammed is not so much about depicting the Prophet, but the insinuation that Islam and the Prophet represent terrorism,
b. the caricature is a clear insult that goes beyond freedom of expression. None of the Muslim friends had any doubt about freedom of expression, as this freedom must be exercised with responsibility,
c. the current episode underscores the growing divide and misrepresentation of their Islamic faith. Attempts by the Dutch to introduce a censored Quran is certainly an incitement.

Listed below are some editorials and opinion pieces from major US newspapers.

Many of the bloggers here [ JEFF OOI says: Get the record straight. Here, there's only one blogger, that's me, Jeff Ooi. The rest are commentors. ] exemplified the inherent bigotry, and lacked the intellectual capacity and certainly without thinking (it is not about allowing thinking, but thinking itself).

Will there ever be a closure? We hope that time can heal, but what’s clear is for us to understand that in Malaysia, the demographics are fast changing the societal structure as Islam is the fastest growing religion in Malaysia.

So for a peaceful and tolerant society, we must have the resolve to observe:

a. one man’s right to swing his arm ends where another man’s nose begins,
b. subjecting sacred things to criticism is not the same as subjecting them to laughter and satire,
c. anti-clericalism and the doctrine of separation of the state and church is purely a Continental European phenomenon derived from the revolutions of the 19th Century that dismantled the privileges and political powers of the Roman Catholic church, [ DELETED ]. Remember always that maggots thrive in scatological milieus! The point is always to avoid immersing oneself in any scatological situation! For as long as we believe that “we are better than them” and that “their religion believes in killing”, remember that the same argument can be applied to you, with many examples to quote. Peaceful co-existent is about tolerating differences and “putting your minds into high gear before your mouth goes in motion”!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/07/AR2006020701849_pf.html
Washington Post
“The cartoons, whose vulgarity and offensiveness are beyond question, were published as a calculated insult last September by a right-wing newspaper in a country where bigotry toward the minority Muslim population is a major, if frequently unacknowledged, problem.”

“Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen arrogantly refused to meet with ambassadors from Muslim countries last fall, when the controversy might have been defused.”

“In reprinting the drawings the European papers demonstrated not their love of freedom but their insensitivity -- or hostility -- to the growing diversity of their own societies. It is just such attitudes, more than any insult to Islam, that have inspired much of the Muslim resentment toward the West, and the growing anger of Muslims who live in Europe.”

New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/08/arts/design/08imag.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/09/international/middleeast/09cartoon.html?ei=5094&en=7b817f315d7c38d5&hp=&ex=1139461200&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print
“Mr. Akkari said the group had worked for more than two months in Denmark without eliciting any response. "We collected 17,000 signatures and delivered them to the office of the prime minister, we saw the minister of culture, we talked to the editor of the Jyllands-Posten, we took many steps within Denmark, but could get no action," Mr. Akkari said, referring to the newspaper that published the cartoons. He added that the prime minister's office had not even responded to the petition.
Frustrated, he said, the group turned to the ambassadors of Muslim countries in Denmark and asked them to speak to the prime minister on their behalf. He refused them too.
"Then the case moved to a new stage," Mr. Akkari recalled. "We decided then that to be heard, it must come from influential people in the Muslim world."
The group put together a 43-page dossier, including the offending cartoons and three more shocking images that had been sent to Danish Muslims who had spoken out against the Jyllands-Posten cartoons.

Mr. Akkari denied that the three other offending images had contributed to the violent reaction, saying the images, received in the mail by Muslims who had complained about the cartoons, were included to show the response that Muslims got when they spoke out in Denmark.”….

“In Cairo, for example, the group also met with journalists from Egypt's media. During a news conference, they spoke about a proposal from the far-right Danish People's Party to ban the Koran in Denmark because of some 200 verses that are alleged to encourage violence.
Several newspapers then ran articles claiming that Denmark planned to issue a censored version of the Koran.”….

“The issue of the cartoons came at a critical time in the Muslim world because of Muslim anger over the occupation of Iraq and a sense that Muslims were under siege. Strong showings by Islamists in elections in Egypt and the victory of Hamas in the Palestinian elections had given new momentum to Islamic movements in the region, and many economies, especially those in the Persian Gulf, realized their economic power as it pertained to Denmark.”

Regardless how the Imam wants to do it. Maybe he is just as foolish as the Danish editors. But you can never deny that the depicting of prophet took place.

Yes, on the way to the chaotic situation, we found out who is the culprit. The defiant editors and also the 'desperate' Imam who wants to bring the message across in a country mostly populated by non-muslim. So he got it screwed. But what bout the editors?

You think they used this to pick up a war? The war has been started since the European relocate the Jews back to the middle east...

The line as i see it is this Question: When does respect/tolerance for another practice/religion become submission into that practice/religion?

Take vegetarians for example. Does this mean that they shun McDonalds and never eat salad there? Does this mean McDonalds must be sensitive to their views and stop serving meat? Of course this is a very simple example but does open doors to questions regarding faith, culture, free speech, laws, and other sensitive issues.

Just my view.

eMalaysian,
/Take vegetarians for example. Does this mean that they shun McDonalds and never eat salad there? Does this mean McDonalds must be sensitive to their views and stop serving meat?/

Although you might be criticised for being overly simplistic, I think that's a brilliant analogy for the way things should be. Ie, it's all about the individual and personal choice. Very nice way of putting it I must say.

eMalaysian & hann,

yes, you ARE being oversimplistic... no vegetarian would care if an establishment like macdonald's serves meat. but i think everybody would be angry if a macdonald's ad say that "vegetarians are terrorists". see the point?

and i honestly think that you guys (including jeff) are jumping to conclusions. the danish imams already explained that the 3 extra drawings were taken from hate mails they received after complaining about the cartoons. is it so hard to believe that a danish anti-muslim saw the original picture in a paper somewhere, thought that it would serve very well to insult muslims, photocopy it, wrote down "this is muhammad's face", and send it as hate mail to danish muslims???

and you guys are supposed to be "champions" of western values, one of which is "innocent until proven guilty"... heesh... *shake head*

I read this in the PAS harakah website: www.harakahdauly.net

Pelajar demontrasi, solat hajat bantah ‘kebiadaban’ Denmark

'Dalam pada itu, Ketua Dewan Pemuda PAS Kelantan, Mohd Zaki Ibrahim mengajak rakyat di negara ini memboikot barangan keluaran Denmark dan mana-mana negara yang cuba mempersendakan Nabi Muhammad saw melalui karikatur.

Katanya, melalui cara itu boleh memberi pengajaran kepada mana-mana pihak yang cuba menghina agama Islam. "Rakyat negara ini harus memboikot dan memulau barangan yang diimport dari Denmark atau pun mana-mana negara Eropah yang menyokong tindakan akhbar di Denmark.'

This is what I call leaders without wisdom. You will never be able to boycott all the western product (US & Europe had openly support the Danmark in press freedom). The very existence of harakah website cannot be made possible without the western product such as computers and window operating program. Their boycott is more like a provocation for the muslim to fight with the so call western countries. The PM already said that no boycott of Danish product, this is what a rational Muslim should say and do. How can we trust our countries to those PAS leaders. I will definately vote for BN because it is the better evil among the two.

The Muslim if they continue to act 'violently' each time crisis like this happen without using their brain, they will forever remain inferior to those western countries. The western countries are all developed nation, Denmark economy will not collapse just because the few Muslim countries decide to boycott her product. But if the western countries decide to boycott the Muslim countries products, they will be doomed. Look at what happened to Iraq during the economy sanction, the iraqi people suffer NOT the western countries. In fact all the Muslim countries depend on the Western countries for their economy MORE that the vice versa. This is the fact of life and cannot be denied.

Dear vain_harper,

"is it so hard to believe that a danish anti-muslim saw the original picture in a paper somewhere, thought that it would serve very well to insult muslims, photocopy it, wrote down "this is muhammad's face", and send it as hate mail to danish muslims???"

to answer your question, yes it is hard to believe. what proof is there to substantiate this theory? from what i understand, out of the 12 caricatures (which is totally tasteless), the danish imans add another 3 which far more insulting than the 12 and do a "road show" all over the middle east. if they want to make a point, why not just use the original 12 and "make a point", instead of adding another 3 which,i think, they knew full well what reaction they will get when other muslims see it.to say the danish imams are innocent, well so far they are more guilty than innocent.

vain_harper,
//yes, you ARE being oversimplistic... no vegetarian would care if an establishment like macdonald's serves meat. but i think everybody would be angry if a macdonald's ad say that "vegetarians are terrorists". see the point?//

I think you're missing the point that eMalaysian and I were trying to make, that is that vegetarians shouldn't be allowed to force McDonald's not to serve meat, in the same way that these extremists should not be allowed to impose their views on a country and culture that is not their own. Perhaps the Danish Muslims had a right to be angry, seeing that it was their home and country (although some might call the imams' tour of the Middle East treasonous, but I digress), but that is no reason for the rest of the world to get involved. This is Europe, where freedom of expression is prized slightly higher than in Asia. Nothing to do with the people in the Arab countries at all. I hope you see the distinction.

Your point of western values is a cheap shot. Yes, innocent till proven guilty, so maybe the imams were guilty not of photoshopping the photo themselves, but they were certainly guilty of trying to add more fuel to the fire. You can't deny that they cynically included cartoons NOT in the original newspaper article to stoke up passions. That is a despicable act, and it is certainly below these so-called men of God. Someone made the distinction earlier, that the original 12 cartoons were merely tasteless, but the added 3 were downright disgusting. We can safely assume that the imams certainly thought so as well, as they saw fit to pad up their report with falsities. Frankly, despicable.

arty & hann,

well, you guys seem to buy some western media's claim that the imams included those 3 extra drawings WITH the 12 originals, "to make it look like they have also been published by JP".

as i mentioned, you guys should practice "verify before you believe"...

go look in wikipedia for yourself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy_43p_dossier ), there is a page dedicated to the controversial dossier. the original 12 cartoons are on page 10 to 17. then there are 7 pages of letters (18-24), then several photocopies of danish articles concerning muhammad (9 pages, 25-33), THEN there are 3 extra photocopies/drawings (34-36).

hann seems to believe that the imams lumped all those 12+3 cartoons together as an attempt to make it look like JP published all 15 cartoons. i have proven that THIS IS NOT TRUE, THE IMAMS HAVE NEVER TRIED TO DECEIVE ANYBODY ABOUT JP BY INCLUDING THOSE 3 EXTRA DRAWINGS. now, everybody, please use your minds...

JEFF OOI says: This part -- quote: "as i mentioned, you guys should practice "verify before you believe"...unquote-- is unsettling. The Danish imams should have VERIFIED that one of the 3 extra images is not manipulated rip-off of an unrelated newsphoto by the Associated Press.

dear vain_harper,

it doesn't matter whether the extra 3 were published in JP or not.it is the nature of the extra 3 caricatures that most find it to be most insulting.i'm sure the danish imams knew this and took advantage of this for reasons unknown to most.now because of their actions,the world is in a mess and they convieniently that it has nothing to do with the caricatures.i'm not siding with anyone.JP are obviously being insensitive, the rest of the european newspaper are totally,for a lack of a better word,stupid.they reprinted the caricatures in the name of press freedom,which is not threathen at all in any way,further fueling more protest.and of course the danish imams need to take some responsibility for starting all these.the least they could do is call for calm,but that is too troublesome i guess.

jeff...

i would re-ask my previous question:
"and i honestly think that you guys (including jeff) are jumping to conclusions. the danish imams already explained that the 3 extra drawings were taken from hate mails they received after complaining about the cartoons. is it so hard to believe that a danish anti-muslim saw the original picture in a paper somewhere, thought that it would serve very well to insult muslims, photocopy it, wrote down "this is muhammad's face", and send it as hate mail to danish muslims???"

if an anonymous person sends you an obscure but insulting picture (of a man with a pig snout) on which is written "this is the face of jesus", does it have to be an "original artwork" for you to be offended? what relevance does it make that the original picture was actually a man "voluntarily" wearing a pig snout? the ACT of sending such insults is what we should complain about.

JEFF OOI says: I have been on commercial Internet since 1995 and a victim of junk mails and hatemails over the last 10 years. Based on this decade-old personal experience, I can deduce that ALL of these junkmails and hatemails were sent by anonymous sources who obviously lack the courage to identify themselves. Their identity, though technologically traceable via the digital footprint, are unknown and that makes tracing them a tedious and futile process abd resourcelly wasteful. My stance has been to ignore such hatemails/junkmails sent by ficttious, dubious originators whose agenda are morally decadent as plan junks. Good thinkingteaches us that we shouldn't glorify such junks by putting them on the pedestal, more so it were to be used for an international roadshow to lobby for agenda gains. This is hugely preposterous act that bring harm to the transmitter and the recipients. These Danish imam proved precisely that. And that is very unsettling.
.
the point is:
- some people say that the danish imams tried to make muslims believe that JP published 15 cartoons instead of 12: PROVEN UNTRUE

JEFF OOI says: A noble cause shouldn't be tainted by irreversible blemishes. They only weaken, and even destruct the cause.

arty said:
//i'm sure the danish imams knew this and took advantage of this for reasons unknown to most//

vain_harper,
I think we all know what reasons these are, and whether you want to call it "depicting the extent of racism in Western countries", I call it "incitement to hatred and fueling the flames". Please don't put words in my mouth, I have never said anywhere on the post that the imams were trying to make their buddies think the JP printed 15 instead of 12. However the fact of the matter is that they DID include 3 extra, which were NON-SATIRICAL, and did not serve any purpose other than to raise anger. Which is why I call them despicable. I'm sorry you can't see that. Your point about verification and hate mail has already been answered by Jeff.

Posted by: hann [TypeKey Profile Page] | February 9, 2006 04:35 PM

eMalaysian & hann,

yes, you ARE being oversimplistic... no vegetarian would care if an establishment like macdonald's serves meat. but i think everybody would be angry if a macdonald's ad say that "vegetarians are terrorists". see the point?

=====
I agree i am being very simplistic in the vegetarian example. Lets not argue about that. Argue about the LINE.

Where is the line when respect/tolerance for another culture becomes submission into that culture?

It is different for each person.

For me, it is this: Do not do something to others if you don't like it done to you.

If fact, we should not be only tolerant. We should create harmony, which imho is a higher level than living in tolerance.

scoop: danish editor "flemming rose" has been put on leave, indefinitely!

for what? for printing the 12 anti-muslim cartoons? NO...!!! but for "saying" that he would "consider" publishing HOLOCAUST cartoons... hah! what funny people the danish are... :p

as stephen chow would say: freedom of speech my foot! :)

let me give some links, just in case you guys don't believe me:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1706729,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4700124.stm

http://www.editorsweblog.org/print_newspapers/2006/02/holocaust_cartoons_jyllands_posten_cultu.php

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1410194.cms